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Normal Topic Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order? (Read 6142 times)
RdC
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #8 - 03/21/14 at 00:52:17
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OrangeCounty wrote on 03/20/14 at 19:43:47:
Well, first of all White doesn't necessarily want to play e2-e4 in the Fianchetto KID at all.  It blocks the bishop, gives Black a target, and loses pawn control of d3,d4,f3, and (not that it usually matters) f4. 


That's the case  for not playing e4. The case for not playing Nc3 is usually related to reducing Black's option in the event of an attempted transposition to Gruenfeld ideas by the early d5.

The importance of these early move order variations is probably over-stated unless you have a very definite idea of what positions you would like to reach and which ones you want to avoid.
  
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #7 - 03/20/14 at 19:43:47
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Well, first of all White doesn't necessarily want to play e2-e4 in the Fianchetto KID at all.  It blocks the bishop, gives Black a target, and loses pawn control of d3,d4,f3, and (not that it usually matters) f4.  Often White will at least delay the move until Black is actually threatening something.  And if you aren't going to play e4 early, why play Nc3?  The reason 3.Nc3 is a thing is to play 4. e4.  If you aren't going to play e4, maybe this can be delayed too.

On the other hand, if you're planning to fianchetto, then c4, g3, Bg2, and 0-0 are always going to be things you do.  Unless you're playing the English, you want d4 too.  And while I've seen people delay the king's knight's development to go to e2, this doesn't seem sensible (g3 isn't available for one thing).  So, unless Black is threatening something, White should play the most flexible moves consistent with his plan.

1. d4, 2. c4, 3. Nf3, 4. g3, 5. Bg2, 6. 0-0 (in some order).
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #6 - 12/29/13 at 20:52:35
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It would be nice if 6...c5 worked for Black, as after 7.d5 e6! it already looks like White is struggling.  But if just 7.Bg2 I don't really see a way to punish White.  Still, it's hard to believe that Black could actually achieve more than equality, so the second player should be happy here as well.

It brought to mind the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O c5 7. d5 b5 8. cxb5 a6 9. bxa6 Bf5!, which White should probably avoid.  I used to try to play this way as Black, but no-one ever played 7.d5 against me.

In the position in question, though, 6...Bg4! does look like the way to punish White.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #5 - 12/29/13 at 16:43:17
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Upon 6...Bg4 7. Bg2, Minev (this was in the 1970s, in ECO) gave this bit:  7...Nfd7 8. Be3 e5 9. d5 f5 10. h3 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 f4 12. gf ef 13. Bd4 Ne5 -/+ Mastichiadis-Najdorf, Dubrovnik (ol) 1950.  His main line (with several deviations) went 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Qxf3 Nc6 9. d5 Nd4 10. Qd1 Nd7 11. Be3 e5 12. de6 Nxe6 13. Qd2 Re8 with the idea of ...Nec5.  I notice that 7. Bg2 was met by 7...Nc6 in another oldie (Eigler-Benko, Budapest ch-HUN 1951), which I'd say looks kinda thematic: 8. h3 Bxf3 9. Bxf3 e5 10. d5 Nd4 11. Bg2 Nd7 12. O-O c5 13. dxc6 bxc6 14. Be3 Rb8 15. Qd2 Qa5 16. Rad1 Nb6 17. Qd3 Qb4 and White coughed up a pawn (no b3).

This might be compared to 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 0-0 5. Bg2 d6 6. 0-0 Nc6 7. Nc3 a6 8. e4 Bg4, which has been given as dubious for White, but Nunn and Janjgava didn't think so.

I too thought that 6. g3 c5 should be nice for Black.  Since 7. d5 indeed looks unhealthy I supposed White would play 7. Bg2 (and perhaps hope he isn't worse).
« Last Edit: 12/29/13 at 18:50:45 by kylemeister »  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #4 - 12/29/13 at 10:51:06
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Bibs wrote on 12/29/13 at 08:48:22:
kylemeister wrote on 12/29/13 at 03:38:09:
Well, it just doesn't look right  Smiley  One move that comes to mind after 6. g3 is 6...Bg4, which IM Minev gave long ago as leading to advantage for Black.


Possible to expand a little on why...?


Presumably something like 6...Bg4 7.Bg2 Nc6 8.Be3 e5 9.d5 Nd4, right?  It does look pretty good for the second player.
  
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #3 - 12/29/13 at 08:48:22
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kylemeister wrote on 12/29/13 at 03:38:09:
Well, it just doesn't look right  Smiley  One move that comes to mind after 6. g3 is 6...Bg4, which IM Minev gave long ago as leading to advantage for Black.


Possible to expand a little on why...?
  
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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #2 - 12/29/13 at 07:56:21
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Also I think e.g.  6. g3 c5 7. d5 e6, opening things up before White castles is nice for Black.

Therefore I think the reasons for delaying Nc3 and e4 may be to do with getting castled quickly, which g3 makes a move slower.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
Reply #1 - 12/29/13 at 03:38:09
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Well, it just doesn't look right  Smiley  One move that comes to mind after 6. g3 is 6...Bg4, which IM Minev gave long ago as leading to advantage for Black.
  
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Kings Indian Fianchetto Variation Move Order?
12/29/13 at 02:19:00
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I'm trying to navigate the maze of move order options associated with a White opening repertoire built around Nf3 and c4, ideally using the fianchetto variation against the Kings Indian.

It appears to be the case that in the most common move orders, White defers playing the moves e4 and Nc3 until the later part of the opening.  e.g. a typical position would be one that emerges from the following line:

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5. d4 d6 6. 0-0

Whereas if one follows an anti-Grunfeld move order like:

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.d4 0-0

then 6. Be2 is almost universally played here, with it being uncommon to enter the fianchetto variation with 6. g3.  But in the relatively rare instances 6. g3 is played, it's most common for the game to transpose back to the mainlines with moves like 6...Nbd7 7.Bg2 e5 8.0-0.

So could any KID move order whizzes opine on why e4 and Nc3 are typically delayed, and why 6. g3 is rarely played in the line above?  I feel like I'm missing something here.  Thanks!



  
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