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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar (Read 37331 times)
RdC
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #15 - 01/10/14 at 21:31:33
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kylemeister wrote on 01/10/14 at 21:10:37:
Well, there's the idea that the d5-pawn could get in White's way.  Smiley


Exactly, if you play 1. ..e5 against 1. e4, you are wary about a Bishop on c4, particularly if combined with a half open f file and a Rook on f1. If the Blackmar-Diemar has any point to it at all isn't that the tabiya that White is aiming for?

For that matter, not being a Caro or Scandinavian player, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a set up that was pawns on e6 and c6, Bishops on f5 and e7, Knights on f6 and d7. I would prefer a Sicilian or Benoni structure with g6, Bg7, Nf5 and c5. I don't play 1.d4 2.c4 either, so I have no particular fright of the Albin, which doesn't usually involve playing f6 anyway.


  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #14 - 01/10/14 at 21:10:37
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Well, there's the idea that the d5-pawn could get in White's way.  Reminds me of Diebert-Silman, from ...How to Reassess Your Chess   Smiley
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #13 - 01/10/14 at 20:27:59
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What's the pawn doing on c5?  I don't understand why it should be there, personally.  The point of the Albin and Budapest Gambits, for instance, are to try to make White's 2.c4 look like a waste of a tempo.

I'm not saying that Black's position is actually worse in some ultimate sense (the Blackmar Diemer is not such a great opening), but I don't understand why you'd want to invite White's pawn to d5 and have your own in the way on c5. 

Serious question: what's better for White, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 or 1.d4 d5 2.c3 e5?
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #12 - 01/10/14 at 18:37:45
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/10/14 at 13:19:59:
You don't want to play against a tempo-up Albin, which is just about "sound" already--especially not unprepared.


It's really not a tempo-up Albin, apart from that old line with f6 someone mentioned.

I don't believe my opponent knew the opening in detail any better than I did, it's not the normal type of Diemar position you get when Black takes immediately on f3 and then plays c6 and e6. That I thought was best avoided, given you get positions where White has played Ne5 and Bc4 and an unexpected Rxf5 becomes possible.


  
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fling
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #11 - 01/10/14 at 17:47:37
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Sorry, a bit unclear remark. I meant that some of the main lines in 1. d4 d5 and 1. e4 c6 as in the Slav, QGD etc, or the main lines of the Caro-Kann, like the Shirov variation or The Fantasy variation, e.g, respectively, are tougher to play against. Could be suffering, but without an extra pawn.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #10 - 01/10/14 at 13:19:59
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RdC wrote on 01/07/14 at 01:32:32:
I recently had to improvise something against the Blackmar-Diemar....


I agree with MNb that 4...c5 looks somewhat dangerous in a practical game.  You don't want to play against a tempo-up Albin, which is just about "sound" already--especially not unprepared.

For that one rated game out of 310 that I actually faced the Blackmar-Diemar (I've seen it more in Blitz) when I had to improvise something, I just played 4...e3.  The game proceeded 5.Bxe3 e6 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Nge2 Nb4 and I was already pretty happy with my position.

Not that it's any attempt at refutation, but there are safer ways of winging it than 4...c5 5.d5.  You might argue that the popularity of 4...c6(!) is Black's attempt to profit from not having moved the c-pawn two squares, as he would have in the White side of the Albin.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #9 - 01/10/14 at 09:17:33
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RdC wrote on 01/10/14 at 01:30:02:
I would play 3. .. e5 . So if I have notice that a Blackmar-Diemar is likely, I would play 1. .. d5 in preference to 1. .. Nf6

3...e5 is fine. It's just superfluous if you indeed intend 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 dxe4 as 4.f3 just transposes. Playing 1...d5 iso 1...Nf6 doesn't guarantee anything; the logical combination is 3...e5 with the Hübsch 3...Nxe4. The latter is also fine.

fling wrote on 01/10/14 at 07:36:26:
I have looked at systems with ...c6 followed by ...Bf5 or ...Bg4. These are not very terrifying for Black, and seems more like a pawn for nothing. The main lines in these systems are something I fear more...

1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 (4...c6 5.5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5) 5.Nxf3 c6 6.Bd3 Bg4 7.h3 gives White reasonable compensation.
6.Bc4 Bf5 has been a main line since at least 30 years or something, so I don't understand your last remark. In fact this is older than the BDG itself. Milner Barry played 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 exf3 when Diemer was still a toddler.
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #8 - 01/10/14 at 07:36:26
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I haven't seen anything that is more than a slight initiative in many of the main lines. Specifically, since I play 1. d4 d5 as Black, and intend to play 1. e4 c6, I have looked at systems with ...c6 followed by ...Bf5 or ...Bg4. These are not very terrifying for Black, and seems more like a pawn for nothing. The main lines in these systems are something I fear more...
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #7 - 01/10/14 at 01:30:02
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MNb wrote on 01/09/14 at 20:47:45:
As soon as Black takes on f3 the move neither doesn't waste time anymore nor blocks anything.
So we get 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c5 5.d5


I would play 3. .. e5 . So if I have notice that a Blackmar-Diemar is likely, I would play 1. .. d5 in preference to 1. .. Nf6

In the style of beginners, 3. ..e5 can be met with 4. Qh5. You can then sacrifice for development with 4. .. Nf6 with the point 5. Qxe5+ Be7. This parallels the idea that after 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5, you have 2. .. Nf6 "blundering" the e pawn as well as 2. .. Nc6 defending it.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #6 - 01/09/14 at 20:47:45
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In general yes but I think there might better ways for Black than playing ...c5. So does Scheerer in his book on the BDG. His main line against ...c5 runs 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 c5 6.d5 g6 (he doesn't mention 6...a6, so if I'm right in my first comment the fianchetto should be questioned) 7.Bf4 Bg7 8.Qd2 O-O 9.O-O-O a6 (Nbd7 isn't mentioned by Scheerer either but gives us the Albin's reversed stuff) 10.d6!

RdC wrote on 01/09/14 at 12:09:56:
the time wasting and blocking f3 move

As soon as Black takes on f3 the move neither doesn't waste time anymore nor blocks anything.
So we get 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c5 5.d5
a) 5...e6 6.fxe4 exd5 7.exd5
b) 5...Bf5 6.g4 Bg6 7.g5
in both cases with quite good play for White, especially when compared with some other lines. So your argument doesn't apply in this case. I'm not a fan of the BDG, but don't think we should think lightly of it either.
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #5 - 01/09/14 at 12:09:56
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MNb wrote on 01/09/14 at 09:46:25:
Then you're not familiar with Lamford's and Raetsky's books on the Albin's and have never heard of the Norwegian IM Ernst Rojahn, who played this in corr games in the 40's and 50's.

The aforementioned Rojahn preferred ...Qxf6 in similar lines.
Disclaimer: due to silicon analysis the idea is refuted. With colors reversed and an extra tempo though ....


Evidently not. The practical verdict on the Diemar is much the same as on the Kings Gambit, that there are plenty of decent lines against it and it's really just a question of maintaining the half pawn or so of advantage handed over in the opening and not falling into any of the tactical snares. Personal style, but I'd prefer half a pawn of initiative to a extra pawn but minus half a pawn of initiative. That's why I like the idea of meeting the time wasting and blocking f3 move with c5 or e5.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #4 - 01/09/14 at 09:46:25
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RdC wrote on 01/08/14 at 14:47:02:
I don't think Black ever gives away a pawn with f6 in the Albin.

Then you're not familiar with Lamford's and Raetsky's books on the Albin's and have never heard of the Norwegian IM Ernst Rojahn, who played this in corr games in the 40's and 50's.
I know games with this idea from before WW-2. A more recent, spectacular example:

Barbora-Benesch
corr CSR 1981
0-1



I myself won a corr game with 11.Bxh3 Qxh3 12.b4 Ng4 13.Bb2 h5 14.b5 Nce5 15.Qc2 h4 16.Qf5+ Kb8 17.Qg5 Bc5 0-1 De Bruin-MNb, corr NBC 1995.
The aforementioned Rojahn preferred ...Qxf6 in similar lines.
Disclaimer: due to silicon analysis the idea is refuted. With colors reversed and an extra tempo though ....
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #3 - 01/08/14 at 14:47:02
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MNb wrote on 01/07/14 at 16:09:04:
Black must beware not getting an Albin's Countergambit with colors reversed and a tempo less, so I distrust 6...g6.


I don't think Black ever gives away a pawn with f6 in the Albin. But I agree with an earlier poster that taking on e4 with the Knight and then playing e5 looks simpler.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #2 - 01/07/14 at 16:09:04
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RdC wrote on 01/07/14 at 01:32:32:
So 4. .. c5. 5. d5 isn't forced, but seems a reasonable try. Black can take on f3 and then play either 6. .. g6 or even 6. ..a6.

Black must beware not getting an Albin's Countergambit with colors reversed and a tempo less, so I distrust 6...g6. Despite Rybka claiming enough compensation after 6...a6 7.Bf4 e6 8.dxe6 Qxd1+ 9. Rxd1 Bxe6 I have strong doubts.
The adventurous move is Gedult's 5.Bf4.
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #1 - 01/07/14 at 02:20:13
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You might consider 3...Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4 as a simple solution.  Idea: 5.f3 e5 or 5.Bc4 Nc6 (threat Qxd4) 6.c3 e5.
  

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