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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar (Read 26923 times)
Gambit
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #45 - 08/03/18 at 11:57:39
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Blackmar-Diemer Gambit is not your typical opening.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #44 - 07/22/18 at 00:53:47
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Gambit wrote on 07/12/18 at 17:36:17:
If Black is not careful, he can get into plenty of trouble.

Roll Eyes  Shocked
This doesn't happen in other openings?
  

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Gambit
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #43 - 07/12/18 at 17:36:17
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RdC wrote on 04/07/18 at 13:56:51:
Gambit wrote on 04/07/18 at 11:20:03:
To begin with, after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 c5 5. d5 exf3 6. Nxf3 a6 7. a4 g6 8. Bc4 Bg7 there can follow 9 00 00 10 Bf4 Bf5 11 a5 Nbd7 12 Qd2 b5  13 ab6 Nxb6  14 Ba2 c4 15 Rad1 Qc8


Is there any great need to play .. Bf5? In a semi-Benoni structure you would consider playing .. b6 to prevent a5. You aren't forced to play .. b5 as a  response to a5 either.

Black can with care play the position in the same way as if there was a pawn on f2.


David Gedult used to play 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 c5 5 Bf4!? here, with good results. If Black is not careful, he can get into plenty of trouble. Most of his games were blitz, yet they demonstrate how tricky this line can be.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #42 - 04/07/18 at 13:56:51
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Gambit wrote on 04/07/18 at 11:20:03:
To begin with, after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 c5 5. d5 exf3 6. Nxf3 a6 7. a4 g6 8. Bc4 Bg7 there can follow 9 00 00 10 Bf4 Bf5 11 a5 Nbd7 12 Qd2 b5  13 ab6 Nxb6  14 Ba2 c4 15 Rad1 Qc8


Is there any great need to play .. Bf5? In a semi-Benoni structure you would consider playing .. b6 to prevent a5. You aren't forced to play .. b5 as a  response to a5 either.

Black can with care play the position in the same way as if there was a pawn on f2.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #41 - 04/07/18 at 11:20:03
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To begin with, after 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 c5 5. d5 exf3 6. Nxf3 a6 7. a4 g6 8. Bc4 Bg7 there can follow 9 00 00 10 Bf4 Bf5 11 a5 Nbd7 12 Qd2 b5  13 ab6 Nxb6  14 Ba2 c4 15 Rad1 Qc8, Jarecki, M - Leisebein, P, Remote email  correspondence, 2005.

Here White played the dubious 16 d6?! and lost later on. Instead, the computer suggests 16 Qd4, 16 Qe3, or 16 Nd4, with equality.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #40 - 04/02/18 at 20:01:00
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RdC wrote on 01/14/14 at 11:52:01:
SWJediknight wrote on 01/14/14 at 11:06:42:
One issue is the so-called "Long Bogo" line, 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 g6 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 c5 9.d5 a6,


Oddly enough, that was exactly how my recent game transposed. The possibility of d6 did vaguely bother me, so I played 9. .. Bg4 rather than 9. .. a6 intending the concession of ceding the Bishop pair to eliminate the potentially dangerous Nf3.



I played the same opponent who repeated the BDG. This time I threw in an early .. a6 which appeared to discourage my opponent from long castling.

So the opening went

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 c5 5. d5 exf3 6. Nxf3 a6 7. a4 g6 8. Bc4 Bg7 9. Bg5 0-0 10. Qd2 Bg4 11. Ne5 Bf5 12. 0-0 Nbd7 13. Nxd7 Qxd7 14. h3 h5 . According to an engine this is advantage Black, but less than a pawn's worth. 14. .. h5 is arguably unnecessary as g4 allows Bxg4 hxg4 Qxg4+ picking up the Bishop. Perhaps Rad8 to gang up on the d pawn.

Black later won, although an engine suggests a line of play from his last chance critical position where Black keeps the extra pawn all the way to a drawn 5 man rook ending.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #39 - 03/04/14 at 06:43:09
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I play the BDG a lot on the Internet Chess Club. Most of my games against 5...c6 come from there. For some reason, when I play the BDG in over-the-board games, I do not get 5...c6. What I do get is the Vienna, the Teichmann, the Euwe, the Bogoljubow, the 5...Bf5 Gunderam... Now and then I get some minor defenses, such as the Langeheinecke, the Weinspach, and the Elbert Counter-Gambit.

Having said that, I should point out that after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 c6 6 Bc4 Bf5 7 Ng5 e6 8 00 Bg6 9 Ne2 Bd6 10 Bf4! I scored some nice wins. Especially true if Black Castles Kingside. Then  my Ng5 and the Queen are a dangerous combination.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #38 - 03/01/14 at 01:13:01
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There's a thread currently ongoing about Avrukh's suggestions vs. Lev Gutman's line (in the ...c6 variations) - I gave one potential improvement for White over his analysis and Stefan Bücker gave another, so I don't think things are especially clear-cut there either.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #37 - 02/27/14 at 23:08:25
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/27/14 at 15:28:57:
I am not aware of any easy way for Black to get an advantage against the BDG but in each of the above lines the theoretical onus is on White to prove full compensation for the pawn rather than on Black to prove equality.

.


You have to get GM Boris Avrukh's book, beating 1.d4 sidelines.  It is a Fantastic  book.   I used and I love it.  I eagerly await any BDG games.
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #36 - 02/27/14 at 15:28:57
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While 5...c6 (and the related O'Kelly variation, 4...c6) has mostly been regarded as the critical test of the Blackmar-Diemer, I would point the Black player towards the following two lines:

A) 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 (6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 c6, followed by ...Nbd7, ...e6 and ...Be7) 6...c6 7.g4 Be6!

B) 5...g6 is the most consistent with the repertoire with an early ...c5.  I suggest that 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe1 Nc6 9.Qh4 Bg4, and 6.Bf4 Bg7 7.Qd2 0-0 8.0-0-0 a5!? (suggested to me by MNb a while ago, by analogy with an article by Abby Marshall which advocated this move against 6.Be3) are the trickiest for White to deal with.

I am not aware of any easy way for Black to get an advantage against the BDG but in each of the above lines the theoretical onus is on White to prove full compensation for the pawn rather than on Black to prove equality.

Against 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4, Black also has 3...Nxe4 4.Nxe4 dxe4.  Then 5.Bc4 runs into trouble against 5...Nc6 intending 6...e5, and 5.Bf4 runs into 5...e6 intending ...c5 undermining the support of the d4-pawn.  Therefore White's best bet is 5.Be3, which in my opinion leaves White no better or worse off than in the normal Blackmar-Diemer.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #35 - 02/27/14 at 04:01:51
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RdC wrote on 01/07/14 at 01:32:32:
I recently had to improvise something against the Blackmar-Diemar. The game started 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 ( so I'm thinking about how to play in the Veresov), but now 3. e4 (If I had thought that this was likely I would have considered playing 1. ..d5). As I don't play the French, then 3. .. dxe4 and now the expected 4. f3. I don't have a high opinion of this move, blocking the square for the Knight at g1 and the Queen at d1 ought to give Black chances. So 4. .. c5. 5. d5 isn't forced, but seems a reasonable try. Black can take on f3 and then play either 6. .. g6 or even 6. ..a6.

The position remains difficult, but Black has an extra pawn and dangerous attacking lines with Bc4 are less possible.


My suggestion is to take the BM gambit head on.  Learn the best line(s) vs the BDG and you won't ever look back.  The Blackmar gambit is one of those dubious ones.  Really, learn how to tackle it head on and you will be very happy.
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #34 - 02/26/14 at 00:28:48
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I agree, after taking a closer look, that in the line 8...c5 9.d5 a6, 10.Be2, with the idea of 10...b5 11.Ne5, is superior to 10.d6.  Indeed, even after 10...Nc6 11.Qe3 exd6 12.Bxd6 Re8 13.Qxc5 Be6 (instead of 13...Ne4) 14.Ng5 (Mann-Zielinski, email 2004) Black could have improved with 14...Bh6 pinning the g5-knight, whereupon I would rather be Black.  After 10.Be2 I would rather be White.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #33 - 01/19/14 at 21:01:19
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/19/14 at 16:26:34:
Agreed MNb, and I mean no hard feelings to anyone else in this thread, I just have no desire to analyze the BDG any more. 


Agreed by me too.
I feel sorry with you both, as you seem to be drawn to waste your time with such unimportants themes all the way.
Why do you answer when not interested?

I mean, Eric, just look at your huge contributions here. Don't have anything better to do or what?

And you, MNb: Allways around here when some discussion rises on that low profile BDG.
Why?
As indeed, there are really important musts in the world one can ponder about. The BDG does not the minimum belong to them. Nor does any chess items. Nor does chess at all.
  

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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #32 - 01/19/14 at 16:26:34
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Agreed MNb, and I mean no hard feelings to anyone else in this thread, I just have no desire to analyze the BDG any more.
  
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Re: c5 against the Blackmar-Diemar
Reply #31 - 01/19/14 at 13:40:39
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/19/14 at 12:35:54:
But I don't want to spend any more time defending the BDG, I think I've made my point a number of times.  If Black wants to play this way he certainly can, and he still has an extra pawn.  I just don't think that he should expect an easy life.

Same for me when I arrived at your conclusion on page 1. Let me put it this way: if ...c5 were Black's most promising defence I would be far more interested in the BDG. The way things are now even a forced win for White after ...c5 would not change my mind about this opening. So I don't have any interest. At the other hand if RdC and Motorhead show an advantage for Black it's just another nail in the coffin.

motörhead wrote on 01/18/14 at 22:15:44:
So there is a must to go back and forth to find the thin line to best white play.

Undoubtedly. There are many more musts in the world - even in opening theory - and this one is very low on my priority list. At the other hand if someone thinks ...c5 an excellent defence he/she by all means should play it.
Perhaps JediKnight might take up your challenge, he likes the opening more than I do and might use the results for his blog and site:

http://tws27.blogspot.com/
http://tws27.weebly.com/
  

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