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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro (Read 38824 times)
Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #61 - 07/26/14 at 11:49:37
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was not a great French fan ol Mihail
  
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Paddy
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #60 - 06/18/14 at 15:05:34
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" 1e4 e6 - One of my most most unsuccessful openings. Almost all the games in which I chose it ended in defeat. (...) I feel these losses were not accidental. Black, in the French, has to play with great accuracy, and this is a quality I never had a great measure of, neither now nor in my earlier days."
Mikhail Tal, annotating his loss against Nezhmetdinov (1957 USSR Ch) in "Learn from the Grandmasters" (Batsford, 1975).
  
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chk
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #59 - 06/17/14 at 08:22:13
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I may be alone on this one but I always put in the same category the Sicilian, French and Caro-Kann. I consider them all as (i) 1st-rate defences, and (ii) counter-attacking systems (e.g. in contrast to playing the Ruy Lopez). In my mind a simplistic distinction between them goes as follows:

1. In terms of timing of the counterattack: Sicilian (quickest) > French (quick enough) > C-K (slowish)
You can also think of the above as "number of moves you have to stay in defence before you strike back", again less moves needed by the: Sicilian > French > C-K

2. In terms of solidity: the other way round

Of course as I said this is a fairly simplistic approach.  Cheesy

P.S.: Off-topic - Just a broad positional consideration: In all 3 defences the c5-break is thematic. This is usually central in most Black counterattacking openings vs. 1. e4. The Sicilian achieves it at move 1, the French around move 5 and the C-K, well sometime in the long run!
  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #58 - 06/17/14 at 07:00:39
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Keano wrote on 06/15/14 at 22:43:39:
Lauri Torni wrote on 06/13/14 at 09:50:01:
I think that clear souls with healthy positional style just do not play the french.
It is interesting, that e.g. recent world champions have played the french only accidentally - Spassky, Fisher, Karpov, Kasparov, Kramnik, Anand (excluding some -dxe4 stuff)

I have played the french with decent results for a long time, but have always found it somehow antipositional  and unintuitive.



So your argument is that because recent World champions have not had the French in their repertoire then it is a second-class opening.

One interesting point, the best player of all time imo - Bobby Fischer, had significant problems playing against the French. Relative to his results against other openings of course!


I did not SAY it is second rate (though it indeed may be) but that at least at the high(est) level you have to have special character to like to play it. 

P.S. Carlsen has played it, but ONlY a few times.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #57 - 06/16/14 at 19:23:45
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Fischer also struggled against 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f6 in simuls. (Look it up! Shocked)

I have no problem accepting that the French is a difficult defense to play well, and that it isn't particularly popular at elite levels. But then we see someone like Agdestein use it to good effect against players 100 rating points above him. There's plenty to be said in favor of the French even if it's not quite as rich in counter-chances as the Sicilian or other lines. 

How Fischer or Carlsen or Kasparov fared against the opening doesn't really persuade me of the merits of that line.
  
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tipau
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #56 - 06/16/14 at 16:15:09
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Another all time great, Anatoly Karpov, stuggled against the St. George's defence  Grin
  

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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #55 - 06/15/14 at 22:43:39
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Lauri Torni wrote on 06/13/14 at 09:50:01:
I think that clear souls with healthy positional style just do not play the french.
It is interesting, that e.g. recent world champions have played the french only accidentally - Spassky, Fisher, Karpov, Kasparov, Kramnik, Anand (excluding some -dxe4 stuff)

I have played the french with decent results for a long time, but have always found it somehow antipositional  and unintuitive.



So your argument is that because recent World champions have not had the French in their repertoire then it is a second-class opening.

One interesting point, the best player of all time imo - Bobby Fischer, had significant problems playing against the French. Relative to his results against other openings of course!
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #54 - 06/13/14 at 11:21:00
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Lauri Torni wrote on 06/13/14 at 09:50:01:
I think that clear souls with healthy positional style just do not play the french


I have to admit that my soul is a little dark and my positional style is... well.... as dark as my soul. You're true.

But maybe for some people that sentence could be offensive   Grin

Masochism is another word people don't understand the French use, trying to convince us that other paths are safer. I think it's the opposite, it's the rest of the word (people not playing the French as black) who is wrong. Cheesy
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #53 - 06/13/14 at 09:50:01
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I think that clear souls with healthy positional style just do not play the french.
It is interesting, that e.g. recent world champions have played the french only accidentally - Spassky, Fisher, Karpov, Kasparov, Kramnik, Anand (excluding some -dxe4 stuff)

I have played the french with decent results for a long time, but have always found it somehow antipositional  and unintuitive.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #52 - 06/12/14 at 23:41:48
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/08/14 at 12:52:25:
If you want to discuss the Sicilian, please go to the Sicilian section.


exactly
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #51 - 06/08/14 at 12:52:25
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If you want to discuss the Sicilian, please go to the Sicilian section.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #50 - 05/29/14 at 15:34:09
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 05/28/14 at 12:49:00:
Keano wrote on 05/28/14 at 12:11:02:
I think the Sicilian is too risky to play for Black


I think we should have a separate thread to discuss this matter   Tongue


Not sure it is that important. But by all means create one.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #49 - 05/28/14 at 12:49:00
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Keano wrote on 05/28/14 at 12:11:02:
I think the Sicilian is too risky to play for Black


I think we should have a separate thread to discuss this matter   Tongue
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #48 - 05/28/14 at 12:11:02
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Some people do think that, but that doesn't make it so or make the French second rate.

I think the Sicilian is too risky to play for Black, it is not a second rate opening though.
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #47 - 05/28/14 at 11:50:03
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Although I am a patzer, I think that the problem (if there is any) with the French is that it is more difficult to play for black than for white . You have les space, yo have a bishop to think about, usually you finished with an isolated pawn. Perhaps this is the reason why some people think 1...e5 or 1...c5 is better
  
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