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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro (Read 45830 times)
Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #46 - 05/28/14 at 08:24:27
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Its not even that, "less than the best according to somebodies belief" is second rate some are trying to claim here.

For me all the main openings are first rate, as are all the top movies of all time, all the top models of TV, etc. I think it is deliberate twisting of the term to try and claim otherwise.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #45 - 05/27/14 at 19:31:16
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Keano wrote on 05/27/14 at 16:10:51:
Stigma wrote on 05/27/14 at 15:31:06:
@Keano:
But nobody at present knows the "objective" truth on how good the major openings/defences are. It's all belief (though more or less well-founded).

And you still haven't defined second-rate, which seems to be the entire disagreement here. How many defences to 1.e4 do you consider first-rate? 4? 5? 8?


So the problem is the meaning of "second rate"? I can't see that it is that complicated, just look how the term is used in common usage, its a non-issue.

"second rate" = mediocre, not of good quality 

Can't believe people are running to semantics to try and rescue this one.

I don't even have an opinion on this myself, I just noticed people were talking past each other.

Clearly some here take second-rate to mean "less than first-rate", while you take it to mean "mediocre". So you may not even have a real disagreement, merely a semantic one. Smiley
  
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tp2205
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #44 - 05/27/14 at 16:41:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/27/14 at 16:03:36:
First-rate are defences which give Black an advantage. Anything else is second-rate.


I knew it, the king's gambit is after all first rate (at least in my experience: I always have trouble equalizing with White.) 
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #43 - 05/27/14 at 16:10:51
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Stigma wrote on 05/27/14 at 15:31:06:
@Keano:
But nobody at present knows the "objective" truth on how good the major openings/defences are. It's all belief (though more or less well-founded).

And you still haven't defined second-rate, which seems to be the entire disagreement here. How many defences to 1.e4 do you consider first-rate? 4? 5? 8?


So the problem is the meaning of "second rate"? I can't see that it is that complicated, just look how the term is used in common usage, its a non-issue.

"second rate" = mediocre, not of good quality 

Can't believe people are running to semantics to try and rescue this one.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #42 - 05/27/14 at 16:03:36
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First-rate are defences which give Black an advantage. Anything else is second-rate.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #41 - 05/27/14 at 15:31:06
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@Keano:
But nobody at present knows the "objective" truth on how good the major openings/defences are. It's all belief (though more or less well-founded).

And you still haven't defined second-rate, which seems to be the entire disagreement here. How many defences to 1.e4 do you consider first-rate? 4? 5? 8?
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #40 - 05/27/14 at 14:42:10
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His comment implied that the French was not second-rate at all, as we said believing that one thing is a better choice than another does not make it objectively so. To suggest an opening that has been tested successfully at World ch level is "second-rate" is frankly absurd, and he did not say that.

We are still waiting for the Kasparov quote also, I will be intrigued at that one also.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #39 - 05/26/14 at 22:28:29
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Sorry to intrude on this incredibly important and fascinating debate, but it's a good idea to agree on a definiton of "second-rate" before you start arguing about which cases it covers.

Doesn't it just depend on how many defences to 1.e4 someone considers first-rate? If it's only the top two (1..e5 and 1...c5 according to Carlsen), then his comment logically implies that the French is (at least) second-rate.

On the other hand, if you think Black has 4, (or 5, 6 etc.) first-rate defences to 1.e4, then you won't take Carlsen's remark that way, because the French very likely is one of those 4 (though possibly "less first-rate" than 1...e5 or 1...c5).
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #38 - 05/26/14 at 18:07:08
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lnn2 wrote on 05/25/14 at 11:34:30:
I"m quite puzzled about this debate and I'm on tipau's camp here.

We are interested in Carlsen's statement on his subjective views on the opening - obviously he couldn't have intended to make sweeping statements on the (objective) merits of an opening in a definitive, and categorical manner. 

While it is true that Carlsen did not say that (objectively) the french is weaker than the other two moves, Carlsen clearly states that he "believes" that the other two are better choices than the french. 


Quite right, and even though it was a once off annotation and possibly a throwaway remark, it is quite possible he does "believe" that. All players have subjective preferences, especially the best.

The original point was that Carlsen and Kasparov said the French was a second rate opening, we are still waiting for a retraction of this claim.
  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #37 - 05/25/14 at 11:34:30
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I"m quite puzzled about this debate and I'm on tipau's camp here.

We are interested in Carlsen's statement on his subjective views on the opening - obviously he couldn't have intended to make sweeping statements on the (objective) merits of an opening in a definitive, and categorical manner. 

While it is true that Carlsen did not say that (objectively) the french is weaker than the other two moves, Carlsen clearly states that he "believes" that the other two are better choices than the french.
  
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tipau
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #36 - 05/24/14 at 21:05:36
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Ok, well I think it's quite clear what Carlsen said and what that implies about his opinion on the opening. I don't think there's much else to add to what's been said already.

Personally I like playing it myself and couldn't care less if another player (no matter how brilliant) thinks there are better options.
  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #35 - 05/22/14 at 21:14:43
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Quite right Rene Descartes, claiming that Carlsen said the French was second rate is not going to wash.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #34 - 05/22/14 at 17:51:20
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Second best doesn't equal second-rate. The bet makes it pretty clear what Carlsen's preferences are. But so what if Carlsen doesn't like it?   I just think the French doesn't fit his style very well. Carlsen, of all people, doesn't care about slight theoretical differences in evaluation of the opening.
« Last Edit: 05/23/14 at 16:15:31 by ReneDescartes »  
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Keano
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #33 - 05/22/14 at 12:08:00
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tipau wrote on 05/22/14 at 11:30:26:
He did say that explicitly

"...I believe that both 1...c5 and 1...e5! are better choices, but since I desperately wanted to win this game ... I decided to try something new..."

That part was written in present tense. OK, it was some time ago and it's possible that since then he's promoted 1...e6 up to the same status, although that seems unlikely based on how often he plays each move.

He clearly thinks it's a good choice under certain circumstances though or he wouldn't ever play it. Not being as objectively strong as 1...c5 and 1...e5 doesn't equal bad.


He "believes" - this is purely philosophical personal preference. The point is he at no time claimed the French was a second rate opening, in fact the reverse.

I believe The Good the Bad and the Ugly is a better movie than Pulp Fiction.

Tarentino or Leone may believe other things, the point is it is a subjective choice, and does in no way make the other movie second rate.
« Last Edit: 05/22/14 at 13:52:00 by Keano »  
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Re: Fans of French are better than fans of the Caro
Reply #32 - 05/22/14 at 11:30:26
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He did say that explicitly

"...I believe that both 1...c5 and 1...e5! are better choices, but since I desperately wanted to win this game ... I decided to try something new..."

That part was written in present tense. OK, it was some time ago and it's possible that since then he's promoted 1...e6 up to the same status, although that seems unlikely based on how often he plays each move.

He clearly thinks it's a good choice under certain circumstances though or he wouldn't ever play it. Not being as objectively strong as 1...c5 and 1...e5 doesn't equal bad.
  
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