" 1e4 e6 - One of my most most unsuccessful openings. Almost all the games in which I chose it ended in defeat. (...) I feel these losses were not accidental. Black, in the French, has to play with great accuracy, and this is a quality I never had a great measure of, neither now nor in my earlier days."
Mikhail Tal, annotating his loss against Nezhmetdinov (1957 USSR Ch) in "Learn from the Grandmasters" (Batsford, 1975).

Keano wrote on 06/15/14 at 22:43:39:


I did not SAY it is second rate (though it indeed may be) but that at least at the high(est) level you have to have special character to like to play it. 

P.S. Carlsen has played it, but ONlY a few times.

Another all time great, Anatoly Karpov, stuggled against the St. George's defence 

Lauri Torni wrote on 06/13/14 at 09:50:01:


I have to admit that my soul is a little dark and my positional style is... well.... as dark as my soul. You're true.

But maybe for some people that sentence could be offensive   

Masochism is another word people don't understand the French use, trying to convince us that other paths are safer. I think it's the opposite, it's the rest of the word (people not playing the French as black) who is wrong.

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/08/14 at 12:52:25:


exactly

Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 05/28/14 at 12:49:00:


Not sure it is that important. But by all means create one.

Some people do think that, but that doesn't make it so or make the French second rate.

I think the Sicilian is too risky to play for Black, it is not a second rate opening though.

Its not even that, "less than the best according to somebodies belief" is second rate some are trying to claim here.

For me all the main openings are first rate, as are all the top movies of all time, all the top models of TV, etc. I think it is deliberate twisting of the term to try and claim otherwise.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/27/14 at 16:03:36:


I knew it, the king's gambit is after all first rate (at least in my experience: I always have trouble equalizing with White.) 

First-rate are defences which give Black an advantage. Anything else is second-rate.

His comment implied that the French was not second-rate at all, as we said believing that one thing is a better choice than another does not make it objectively so. To suggest an opening that has been tested successfully at World ch level is "second-rate" is frankly absurd, and he did not say that.

We are still waiting for the Kasparov quote also, I will be intrigued at that one also.

lnn2 wrote on 05/25/14 at 11:34:30:


Quite right, and even though it was a once off annotation and possibly a throwaway remark, it is quite possible he does "believe" that. All players have subjective preferences, especially the best.

The original point was that Carlsen and Kasparov said the French was a second rate opening, we are still waiting for a retraction of this claim.

Ok, well I think it's quite clear what Carlsen said and what that implies about his opinion on the opening. I don't think there's much else to add to what's been said already.

Personally I like playing it myself and couldn't care less if another player (no matter how brilliant) thinks there are better options.

Second best doesn't equal second-rate. The bet makes it pretty clear what Carlsen's preferences are. But so what if Carlsen doesn't like it?   I just think the French doesn't fit his style very well. Carlsen, of all people, doesn't care about slight theoretical differences in evaluation of the opening.

He did say that explicitly

"...I believe that both 1...c5 and 1...e5! are better choices, but since I desperately wanted to win this game ... I decided to try something new..."

That part was written in present tense. OK, it was some time ago and it's possible that since then he's promoted 1...e6 up to the same status, although that seems unlikely based on how often he plays each move.

He clearly thinks it's a good choice under certain circumstances though or he wouldn't ever play it. Not being as objectively strong as 1...c5 and 1...e5 doesn't equal bad.

Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 21:18:10:

Clearly Carlsen has said so implicitly, if he thinks that 1...c5 and 1...e5 are objectively better. Not that there's any reason to stop playing the French, just because Carlsen said that, it has not stopped him, after all (against the highest level of opposition). Presumably he simply thinks it's a tiny bit worse than 1...c5 or ...e5, but not by a large margin.

Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 20:45:02:


Ok, so your point is that neither explicitly said that the french is a 2nd rate defense, which is probably true. Ok.

Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 19:37:30:


If there are better moves than 1...e6 it would make the french a 2nd rate defence. I claimed nothing else. Carlsen said that he thinks 1...c5 and e5 are better... so I don't really know what we are discussing here?! I don't know how serious he was in his comment but that's what he said ...

Obviously this doesn't say much (or even anything) about the ultimate quality of 1...e6. but then again, no one claimed it would

Keano wrote on 05/21/14 at 19:22:55:


Not sure about the second part of Tipau's statement, but I think the first part is correct. Technically speaking it would make the french second rate in case there are better options as Carlsen implies...

When Carlsen says he believes that both 1...c5 and 1...e5 are the best choices doesn't that by definition mean he thinks other options are "second rate"?

I think that the vast majority of top GMs would rather face the French than those moves. Perhaps objectively all roads lead to a draw but the journey is likely to be more bumpy via 1...e6.

Keano you are right. I found at last what Carlsen said...http://amateur-chess.blogspot.com/2013/05/annotated-chess-game-in-french-defence.... Exactly what you said

Yes I read Carlsen's comments in NIC magazine too. Annotations to Karjakin-Carlsen Wijk aan Zee. Don't have a copy with me now but I agree that Carlsen definitely said French was a second-rate opening. I recall Carlsen said that he made a bet with a friend and the loser had to play the french in a tournament game, and thats why Carlsen played the french against Karjakin.   

His comments didn't stop me from playing the French though.

I remember reading Carlsen's comments as well.

I read them in NIC magazine. I forget the exact issue but it was where he annotated his well known win against Karjakin as Black in the Classical variation with 7...Be7. His comment was essentially that he'd always thought 1...e5 and 1...c5 were the best first moves, which I think the majority of GMs would agree with. Doesn't mean he doesn't think it's playable though, as evidenced by the fact he's played it a number of times!

Keano it was something that I read. But I promise that I will look for it

I noticed that >90% of players who have played both Caro and French would usually have learnt and played the French first e.g. Dreev, Seirawan, Bareev. 

Somehow we get dissatisfied with French at some point and moved to the Caro.

But I hardly see Caro specialists switching to the French... so what does that say about the title of this thread?   

I also feel that the C-K is sounder than the French in the "metaphysical" theory sense- mainly because there seems to be longer-term problems in the French, such as structural issues (e.g. Nf6 Tarrasch/Winawer poisoned pawn) or the blocked c8 bishop.

In the C-K, all White often has is the first move initiative, black usually has a sound structure. But the longer a game lasts, the less the first move initiative matters (it needs to be converted to something concrete, pawn structure advantage/mating attack etc - as Steinitz says (!?) one can't hang on to the initiative ad infinitum). So with the improvement of computers I feel that the C-K defence will get stronger and stronger - my thesis is supported by the fact that more 2700 players go for C-K than French.   

This is not 'theory' is it? 
Or even anything near.
SF/MP - time to move to 'comparing people who play different openings' section. Or something.

The French was my first opening and I still play it from time to time. I remember when making my choice, long ago, I was attracted by its practical value. Basically, you can build up a repertoire where all the dangerous white options end up with the typical French pawn chain (and bad bishop). On the opposite the Caro was, and still is, a bit intimidating. You must handle well a wider range of typical positions: advance, classical, Panov… and white can pick what suits him best. May be just a personal feeling, but I still see it that way and I realize the Caro is the only opening I’ve never dared to try despite trying to learn it several times. I like to force things and the Caro requires a more flexible mind.
So, just to say I have a soft spot for the French and it’s probably because it was my first opening choice. This could explain a special “loyalty”.
  I may be wrong, but it seems the Caro is less frequently a first choice among beginners. 

Actually, I've had Caro players tell me that the French is harder to play, because of the bad bishop on c8. Supposedly, they're similar enough that a French player switching to the Caro should have an easier time of it than someone starting from scratch. At least, that's what the most dedicated Caro player I've ever known told me. 

And I've actually considered trying it. I seem to have a hard time as white against the Caro, so I figure learning it as black will make it easier for me to face. That's why I originally started playing the French, because I had trouble knowing how to handle it as white, and it worked out great for me. I still play the French as black 10+ years later, and it's one of my favorite openings to face now as white.

And I agree with Smyslov_Fan that the BDG and other oddball lines have more die hard fans than these mainstream openings. Not the Ponziani, though. Nobody's that loyal to the Ponz. Coincidentally, the one person I know who used to play the Ponz is the same Caro loyalist I mentioned above. He eventually gave up on the Ponz, I think partially because I scored 2 wins and a draw against him on the black side of it, despite being rated 300+ points lower than him, and never having beaten him in any other opening.

Pingudon wrote on 01/24/14 at 10:49:06:


Funny, i dont recall seeing many people say the CK is easier or better than the French. In my experience its usually the opposite.

And i dont think the French can lay claim to having more loyal or faithfull followers than other openings... 

I have read a LOT of people writing about which defence is better. Usually they conclude Caro is much better and easier to play. Carlsen and Kasparov have said French is a second rate defence. But anyway we French player  keep playing our defence no mater what. I wonder if any other defence has so many loyal and faithfull followers