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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) London System Question (Read 23945 times)
Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #12 - 01/28/14 at 18:39:01
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/28/14 at 15:02:20:
Anonymous3 wrote on 01/27/14 at 03:29:26:
there is no advantage against 4...e5.


Agreed, there is even a game in the Archives where Black wins very easily after 4 c4 e5.



5.cxd5 improves over that game. 5...Nb4 6.dxe5 Bf5 is tricky, but there is 7.e4! Bxe4 8.Nc3 Nc2+ 9.Ke2 Bf5 10.Rc1 Nb4 11.Ke1!. It turns out Black's king isn't safer than White's.
  
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Re: London System Question
Reply #11 - 01/28/14 at 16:26:45
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I played this for Black after purchasing Gary Lane's badly mistitled Chigorin repertoire book , Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings for Black which recommends this f7-f6 idea.  Not that strange when you consider it is a standard move in the Veresov, which is what Black is playing with reversed colors.  You can also find a few GM games that start 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5 f6(!) 3.Bf4 Nc6 which leads to your position down a full tempo (and hence a straight Veresov transposition if i am not mistaken).  You could check that line or Veresov lines in a db to get ideas.

Veresov is not considered so powerful, so one wonders about its merits down a tempo.
In your line, I think White should play early Nf3 inviting Bg4 then Be2.  Black will be obliged to play Bxf3 if he ever wants to get e7-e5, which he does.  Then after ...e5, dxe5 fxe5 White will keep an advantage with two bishops and a quick c2-c4.  Black gets what he wants, but it is questionable whether it is that great for Black.   If White is in time to play Nbd2 (standard Veresov idea) then Bxf3 will not even enable e7-e5.  A final hint, without any specific variations in mind is to look out for Bh5+ or Qh5+ ideas.  Sometimes White can favorably interpose a check on h5 before Black has brought his knight out to f6.

Hrjoye (sp?) Jurkovic is the guy to watch in the f7-f6 reversed Veresov lines.
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: London System Question
Reply #10 - 01/28/14 at 15:02:20
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Anonymous3 wrote on 01/27/14 at 03:29:26:
there is no advantage against 4...e5.


Agreed, there is even a game in the Archives where Black wins very easily after 4 c4 e5.

ErictheRed wrote on 01/27/14 at 00:36:08:
Is there a reason you didn't play 3.Nf3?  Clearly Black is starting a fight for e5 with his second move.  Just wondering.


Yes, White scores very well with this. In the ChessPub Guide it says: "The London system is a good way of taking all of Black's fun out of playing the Chigorin defence. To me, the Black knight on c6 simply looks misplaced in the resulting positions."

Still, after the further 3...Bg4 White mostly plays 4 e3 anyway, so 4...f6 could again be tried?!
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: London System Question
Reply #9 - 01/28/14 at 11:06:35
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Alright fine, how about  1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nc6 3. Nf3!!, intending to meet 3...f6  with 4. c4!!!.  Now if Black persists with his 4...e5 idea he runs into 5. dxe5 d4 (what else?) 6. e3, which looks like an improved Albin (for White). 

I still want to know why anyone would play 3.e3 there.  After 3.Nf3 Bg4! is probably best, transposing to a known anti-Chigorin line or whatever you want to call it: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4 Bg4. 

London players can sleep peacefully again knowing that they can, at least, always equalize!
  
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Bibs
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Re: London System Question
Reply #8 - 01/27/14 at 23:25:02
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*Mod hat on*
This going nowhere fast. Backwards and forwards about moves 3 and 4, but no moves.
Analysis or thread closure by tomorrow, thanks.

All the best, be happy,

Mod Team
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #7 - 01/27/14 at 22:53:25
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Aziridine wrote on 01/27/14 at 09:08:24:
LOL. If you bite the hand that feeds you and you can't feed yourself, expect to go hungry.

Another coverup
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #6 - 01/27/14 at 09:08:24
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LOL. If you bite the hand that feeds you and you can't feed yourself, expect to go hungry.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #5 - 01/27/14 at 03:29:26
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Aziridine wrote on 01/27/14 at 02:14:05:
I can't show you everything - work it out yourself Wink And of course, there's nothing wrong with 4.Nf3 either.

Since you gave 4.c4 a "!" and "+/=", you need to back that up as I don't see any advantage against 4...e5. However, I think your reply was just a coverup and you've realized  there is no advantage against 4...e5.
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #4 - 01/27/14 at 02:14:05
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I can't show you everything - work it out yourself Wink And of course, there's nothing wrong with 4.Nf3 either.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #3 - 01/27/14 at 01:15:40
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Aziridine wrote on 01/27/14 at 00:35:08:
4.c4! +/= with the fine point that 4...dxc4 5.Nc3! is better than 5.Bxc4 e5. You have to be ready to switch to a good Queen's Gambit if Black plays weird moves against your QPG sidelines.

What about 4...e5?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: London System Question
Reply #2 - 01/27/14 at 00:36:08
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Is there a reason you didn't play 3.Nf3?  Clearly Black is starting a fight for e5 with his second move.  Just wondering.
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #1 - 01/27/14 at 00:35:08
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4.c4! +/= with the fine point that 4...dxc4 5.Nc3! is better than 5.Bxc4 e5. You have to be ready to switch to a good Queen's Gambit if Black plays weird moves against your QPG sidelines.
  
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Anonymous3
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London System Question
01/27/14 at 00:12:34
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I recently faced the rare 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nc6 3.e3 f6!? in a tournament game. This is tricky and not as bad as it might seem at first. What is the best way for White to play against this? The game went 4.Bd3 g6! 5.Nd2?! e5 and Black was already better. I was VERY LUCKY to escape with a draw. During the game I didn't like 5.Nf3 because of 5...Bg4 but the computer thinks White is better after 6.Bb5. White has wasted a tempo here with Bd3-b5 but has gotten Black to play the weakening g6.
  
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