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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) London System Question (Read 16048 times)
LostTactic
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Re: London System Question
Reply #27 - 04/15/14 at 03:37:17
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ErictheRed wrote on 04/15/14 at 01:58:08:
Yes of course it is, though you're giving Black extra options such as 1...c5.


Thanks, not bothered about 1...c5 as I face that occasionally anyway.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: London System Question
Reply #26 - 04/15/14 at 01:58:08
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LostTactic wrote on 04/15/14 at 01:28:45:
I would like to know if it's ok to reach the London via 1.Nf3? For example; 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bf4, 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 g6 3.Bf4 or 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.Bf4.


Yes of course it is, though you're giving Black extra options such as 1...c5.
  
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LostTactic
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Re: London System Question
Reply #25 - 04/15/14 at 01:28:45
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I didn't want to start a new thread to ask this question because I expect it's pretty dumb, but I have question regarding a move-order.

I would like to know if it's ok to reach the London via 1.Nf3? For example; 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bf4, 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 g6 3.Bf4 or 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 e6 3.Bf4. It just seems to be a direct transposition. I only ask the question because I play 1.Nf3 exclusively and would consider adding the London to my repertoire for rapidplay events if it's just as simple as the above. Thanks to anyone who answers!
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #24 - 02/03/14 at 02:23:19
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Just 6.b3 I guess.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #23 - 02/03/14 at 01:14:49
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Aziridine wrote on 02/02/14 at 16:11:31:
Anonymous3 wrote on 02/01/14 at 23:01:06:
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? 5.Nf3 g5 6.Bg3 h5 7.h3 Nh6 8.dxc5 e5 and now:

9.b4 Nf5 10.Bh2 Be6 which I think is at least = for Black

Perhaps. Practically speaking I doubt Black plays like this very often, at least not without preparation - he has to reckon with 6.Nxg5!? for instance.
Another option for White to consider is 5.Bd3 g6 6.Nf3. I still have a hard time believing that ...f6 is strong here when White virtually never plays f3 in the Baltic.

After 5.Bd3, what about 5...Qb6?
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #22 - 02/02/14 at 16:11:31
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I've been assuming the OP is trying to avoid 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.c3 Qb6 with his move order, as recommended on this site and elsewhere. It's debatable whether 4.c3's objectively any better, but let's leave that for another thread.
Anonymous3 wrote on 02/01/14 at 23:01:06:
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? 5.Nf3 g5 6.Bg3 h5 7.h3 Nh6 8.dxc5 e5 and now:

9.b4 Nf5 10.Bh2 Be6 which I think is at least = for Black

Perhaps. Practically speaking I doubt Black plays like this very often, at least not without preparation - he has to reckon with 6.Nxg5!? for instance.
Another option for White to consider is 5.Bd3 g6 6.Nf3. I still have a hard time believing that ...f6 is strong here when White virtually never plays f3 in the Baltic.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: London System Question
Reply #21 - 02/02/14 at 15:34:34
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Anonymous3 wrote on 02/01/14 at 23:01:06:
Aziridine wrote on 02/01/14 at 17:24:04:
Can I not just take on c5?

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? 5.Nf3 g5 6.Bg3 h5 7.h3 Nh6 8.dxc5 e5 and now:

9.b4 Nf5 10.Bh2 Be6 which I think is at least = for Black

9.c4 d4 10.exd4 exd4 11.Bd3 Qe7+ =


Guys, guys!  I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I think I have an idea: 4.Nf3!?.

I know, I know.  It looks completely crazy at first--actively developing a knight to f3, controlling d4 and e5, instead of the purely overprotecting 4.c3!!.  But it might be worth a try in a practical game for surprise value.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #20 - 02/01/14 at 23:01:06
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Aziridine wrote on 02/01/14 at 17:24:04:
Can I not just take on c5?

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? 5.Nf3 g5 6.Bg3 h5 7.h3 Nh6 8.dxc5 e5 and now:

9.b4 Nf5 10.Bh2 Be6 which I think is at least = for Black

9.c4 d4 10.exd4 exd4 11.Bd3 Qe7+ =
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #19 - 02/01/14 at 17:24:04
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Can I not just take on c5?
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #18 - 02/01/14 at 06:25:11
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Aziridine wrote on 02/01/14 at 05:49:29:
Anonymous3 wrote on 02/01/14 at 04:57:21:
Good analysis, thanks. There is also the rare 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? which is tricky and seems to be at least equal for Black. What are your thoughts on this line?

What worries you after 5.Nf3?

5...g5 6.Bg3 h5 7.h3 Nh6
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #17 - 02/01/14 at 05:49:29
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Anonymous3 wrote on 02/01/14 at 04:57:21:
Good analysis, thanks. There is also the rare 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? which is tricky and seems to be at least equal for Black. What are your thoughts on this line?

What worries you after 5.Nf3? It's hard for me to see how Black can actually force through ...e5, and if he can't he's probably just worse. If White rarely finds it rarely worthwhile to play f3+e4 against the Baltic, I doubt Black's going to fare well with reversed colours and without the extra tempo.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #16 - 02/01/14 at 04:57:21
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Aziridine wrote on 01/29/14 at 18:05:06:
Anonymous3 wrote on 01/28/14 at 22:01:57:
What about 5...Qxd5 6.Nc3 Qa5 7.dxe5 fxe5 8.Bg3 Bb4 9.Qb3 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4?

Now we're getting somewhere. 9.Ne2 is an obvious improvement though - the threat of 10.a3 gaining time or winning the bishop pair forces Black to do something fast, and 10...Bg4 11.f3 isn't it (if White's bishop was on g5 Black would have 11...e4 here). Again Black has tricky computer ideas like 10...Bf5 11.a3 Rd8 12.Qc1! Qb6!?, but after 13.Bh4 Nge7 14.Ng3 Bxc3+ 15.Qxc3 Nd5 16.Qc1! Qa5+ 17.Qd2 Qxd2+ 18.Kxd2 White emerges with the bishop pair and better pawns in the endgame.
4.c4 might not be White's cleanest solution but it still works well. Black doesn't play ...f6 and ...e5 for the sake of getting an isolated e-pawn.

Good analysis, thanks. There is also the rare 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 f6!? which is tricky and seems to be at least equal for Black. What are your thoughts on this line?
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #15 - 01/29/14 at 18:05:06
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Anonymous3 wrote on 01/28/14 at 22:01:57:
What about 5...Qxd5 6.Nc3 Qa5 7.dxe5 fxe5 8.Bg3 Bb4 9.Qb3 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4?

Now we're getting somewhere. 9.Ne2 is an obvious improvement though - the threat of 10.a3 gaining time or winning the bishop pair forces Black to do something fast, and 10...Bg4 11.f3 isn't it (if White's bishop was on g5 Black would have 11...e4 here). Again Black has tricky computer ideas like 10...Bf5 11.a3 Rd8 12.Qc1! Qb6!?, but after 13.Bh4 Nge7 14.Ng3 Bxc3+ 15.Qxc3 Nd5 16.Qc1! Qa5+ 17.Qd2 Qxd2+ 18.Kxd2 White emerges with the bishop pair and better pawns in the endgame.
4.c4 might not be White's cleanest solution but it still works well. Black doesn't play ...f6 and ...e5 for the sake of getting an isolated e-pawn.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: London System Question
Reply #14 - 01/29/14 at 00:52:06
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Anonymous3 wrote on 01/28/14 at 22:01:57:
Aziridine wrote on 01/28/14 at 18:39:01:
5.cxd5 improves over that game. 5...Nb4 6.dxe5 Bf5 is tricky, but there is 7.e4! Bxe4 8.Nc3 Nc2+ 9.Ke2 Bf5 10.Rc1 Nb4 11.Ke1!. It turns out Black's king isn't safer than White's.

What about 5...Qxd5 6.Nc3 Qa5 7.dxe5 fxe5 8.Bg3 Bb4 9.Qb3 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4?


There was a game  Jugelt,T (2398)-Shteinberg,V (2171)/Dresden 2009 that continued 8 Bg5 Bb4 (by transposition) instead, when 9 Qb3 Nf6 10 Bxf6 gxf6 might have been a tiny bit better for White, so 5 cxd5 does look a little better than 5 dxe5.
  
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Re: London System Question
Reply #13 - 01/28/14 at 22:01:57
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Aziridine wrote on 01/28/14 at 18:39:01:
5.cxd5 improves over that game. 5...Nb4 6.dxe5 Bf5 is tricky, but there is 7.e4! Bxe4 8.Nc3 Nc2+ 9.Ke2 Bf5 10.Rc1 Nb4 11.Ke1!. It turns out Black's king isn't safer than White's.

What about 5...Qxd5 6.Nc3 Qa5 7.dxe5 fxe5 8.Bg3 Bb4 9.Qb3 Nf6 10.Nf3 Ne4?
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #12 - 01/28/14 at 18:39:01
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/28/14 at 15:02:20:
Anonymous3 wrote on 01/27/14 at 03:29:26:
there is no advantage against 4...e5.


Agreed, there is even a game in the Archives where Black wins very easily after 4 c4 e5.



5.cxd5 improves over that game. 5...Nb4 6.dxe5 Bf5 is tricky, but there is 7.e4! Bxe4 8.Nc3 Nc2+ 9.Ke2 Bf5 10.Rc1 Nb4 11.Ke1!. It turns out Black's king isn't safer than White's.
  
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Re: London System Question
Reply #11 - 01/28/14 at 16:26:45
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I played this for Black after purchasing Gary Lane's badly mistitled Chigorin repertoire book , Ideas Behind Modern Chess Openings for Black which recommends this f7-f6 idea.  Not that strange when you consider it is a standard move in the Veresov, which is what Black is playing with reversed colors.  You can also find a few GM games that start 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5 f6(!) 3.Bf4 Nc6 which leads to your position down a full tempo (and hence a straight Veresov transposition if i am not mistaken).  You could check that line or Veresov lines in a db to get ideas.

Veresov is not considered so powerful, so one wonders about its merits down a tempo.
In your line, I think White should play early Nf3 inviting Bg4 then Be2.  Black will be obliged to play Bxf3 if he ever wants to get e7-e5, which he does.  Then after ...e5, dxe5 fxe5 White will keep an advantage with two bishops and a quick c2-c4.  Black gets what he wants, but it is questionable whether it is that great for Black.   If White is in time to play Nbd2 (standard Veresov idea) then Bxf3 will not even enable e7-e5.  A final hint, without any specific variations in mind is to look out for Bh5+ or Qh5+ ideas.  Sometimes White can favorably interpose a check on h5 before Black has brought his knight out to f6.

Hrjoye (sp?) Jurkovic is the guy to watch in the f7-f6 reversed Veresov lines.
  

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Re: London System Question
Reply #10 - 01/28/14 at 15:02:20
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Anonymous3 wrote on 01/27/14 at 03:29:26:
there is no advantage against 4...e5.


Agreed, there is even a game in the Archives where Black wins very easily after 4 c4 e5.

ErictheRed wrote on 01/27/14 at 00:36:08:
Is there a reason you didn't play 3.Nf3?  Clearly Black is starting a fight for e5 with his second move.  Just wondering.


Yes, White scores very well with this. In the ChessPub Guide it says: "The London system is a good way of taking all of Black's fun out of playing the Chigorin defence. To me, the Black knight on c6 simply looks misplaced in the resulting positions."

Still, after the further 3...Bg4 White mostly plays 4 e3 anyway, so 4...f6 could again be tried?!
  
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Re: London System Question
Reply #9 - 01/28/14 at 11:06:35
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Alright fine, how about  1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nc6 3. Nf3!!, intending to meet 3...f6  with 4. c4!!!.  Now if Black persists with his 4...e5 idea he runs into 5. dxe5 d4 (what else?) 6. e3, which looks like an improved Albin (for White). 

I still want to know why anyone would play 3.e3 there.  After 3.Nf3 Bg4! is probably best, transposing to a known anti-Chigorin line or whatever you want to call it: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bf4 Bg4. 

London players can sleep peacefully again knowing that they can, at least, always equalize!
  
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Re: London System Question
Reply #8 - 01/27/14 at 23:25:02
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*Mod hat on*
This going nowhere fast. Backwards and forwards about moves 3 and 4, but no moves.
Analysis or thread closure by tomorrow, thanks.

All the best, be happy,

Mod Team
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #7 - 01/27/14 at 22:53:25
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Aziridine wrote on 01/27/14 at 09:08:24:
LOL. If you bite the hand that feeds you and you can't feed yourself, expect to go hungry.

Another coverup
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #6 - 01/27/14 at 09:08:24
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LOL. If you bite the hand that feeds you and you can't feed yourself, expect to go hungry.
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: London System Question
Reply #5 - 01/27/14 at 03:29:26
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Aziridine wrote on 01/27/14 at 02:14:05:
I can't show you everything - work it out yourself Wink And of course, there's nothing wrong with 4.Nf3 either.

Since you gave 4.c4 a "!" and "+/=", you need to back that up as I don't see any advantage against 4...e5. However, I think your reply was just a coverup and you've realized  there is no advantage against 4...e5.
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #4 - 01/27/14 at 02:14:05
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I can't show you everything - work it out yourself Wink And of course, there's nothing wrong with 4.Nf3 either.
  
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Re: London System Question
Reply #3 - 01/27/14 at 01:15:40
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Aziridine wrote on 01/27/14 at 00:35:08:
4.c4! +/= with the fine point that 4...dxc4 5.Nc3! is better than 5.Bxc4 e5. You have to be ready to switch to a good Queen's Gambit if Black plays weird moves against your QPG sidelines.

What about 4...e5?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: London System Question
Reply #2 - 01/27/14 at 00:36:08
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Is there a reason you didn't play 3.Nf3?  Clearly Black is starting a fight for e5 with his second move.  Just wondering.
  
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Aziridine
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Re: London System Question
Reply #1 - 01/27/14 at 00:35:08
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4.c4! +/= with the fine point that 4...dxc4 5.Nc3! is better than 5.Bxc4 e5. You have to be ready to switch to a good Queen's Gambit if Black plays weird moves against your QPG sidelines.
  
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Anonymous3
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London System Question
01/27/14 at 00:12:34
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I recently faced the rare 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nc6 3.e3 f6!? in a tournament game. This is tricky and not as bad as it might seem at first. What is the best way for White to play against this? The game went 4.Bd3 g6! 5.Nd2?! e5 and Black was already better. I was VERY LUCKY to escape with a draw. During the game I didn't like 5.Nf3 because of 5...Bg4 but the computer thinks White is better after 6.Bb5. White has wasted a tempo here with Bd3-b5 but has gotten Black to play the weakening g6.
  
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