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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 74068 times)
Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #106 - 03/03/14 at 09:48:20
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OK I'll look at your main move 30...g6

Then I go 31.Kd2 c4 32.Bc2 again with a slight advantage.

You can let me know what you intend, but as I said this is in danger of turning into a correspondence game. All that really interests me is if White is better or not, which is clear enough to me, if Black can hold an endgame in 40 or 45 moves with correct play should not really be surprising, but it will be another thing to replicate this over the board.
  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #105 - 03/03/14 at 01:15:08
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Kylemeister is right. 30.c3 was my intention to 29...c5.

now what is your intended move? 30...c4 or 30...g6

I cannot be wasting time on two  Undecided

I'm tempted to give up here on the basis of lack of endurance, but I think I've shown enough idea's for White already to be able to find some more.

Bare in mind I am talking about this line in use in a practical OTB game, correspondence frankly doesn't interest me.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #104 - 03/02/14 at 04:18:28
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kylemeister wrote on 03/02/14 at 01:23:55:
I presumed the idea was to meet 29...c5 with 30. c3 ...


I will bite, Kyle.

29.Ke2 c5 30.c3 g6

[30...c4 Even with this I would wage we will have a drawn endgame. 31.Bc2 Re6 32.Bxf5

(32.Rh1 g6 33.Kd2 R8e7 This transposes to the line I discuss below.)

32...Rxe5+ 33.dxe5 Bxf5 34.Rxd5 Kf7 35.Rh1 Nh6]

31.Rh1 [31.Kd2 c4 32.Be2 Nf2]

31...c4 32.Bc2 Re6 33.Kd2 R8e7 34.Rag1

[34.Rae1 Be8 35.Rh4

(35.Bd1 Nf2 36.Rh2 Ne4+ 37.Ke3 Rh7)

35...Nf6 36.Reh1 Rh7 37.Rxh7 Nxh7 38.g4 fxg4 39.Nxg4 Nf6

(39...Rb6 40.Kc1 Nf6 41.Ne5 Nh5 Because of transposition, this looks fine too.)

40.Ne5 Rb6]

34...Be8 35.Bd1 [35.Rh4 Nf6 36.Rgh1 Rh7 37.Rxh7 Nxh7 38.g4 fxg4 39.Nxg4 Nf6]

35...Nf2 36.Rh2 Ne4+ 37.Ke3 Rh7 38.Rxh7 Kxh7 39.g4 Rb6 40.Rg2 Nd6

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[This is going no where.  Black will have a grip on e4, will be free to move his knight in and out of that square or move to f7 then d6 again and wait to see where White goes.  Also, Black will still pressures White on the b file.]
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #103 - 03/02/14 at 01:23:55
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I presumed the idea was to meet 29...c5 with 30. c3 ...
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #102 - 03/02/14 at 00:40:33
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No need to backtrack, Black holds in the other plan too and he has a good game.  We can investigate that all you want too.

Cheesy

Now, moving on to the new stuff you have proposed.

23...Rfe8 24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Ne5 Ng4

29.Ke2 c5

[This is the right idea.  Black needs to take space and get his majority rolling.]

30.Kd2 Nxe5

[30...c4 This path seems to draw as well by using a counter attack on the queenside to balance white's threats on the k-side. 31.Be2 Nf2 32.Rg1 Ne4+ 33.Ke3 Ba4 34.Rg2 (34.c3 Nf6 35.Bf3 Re6 36.Rg2 R8e7 37.Rh1 g6 38.Rgh2 Rb6 This is a lock up.  White is tied down to defend the queen side and Black is equally engaged on the K-side, but this seems like balanced attack and counter-attack by both sides) 34...Re6 Same idea as in the other line and this is likely to transpose. 35.Bf3 Rb6 36.c3 Nf6 37.Rh1 Bd7 38.Rgh2 Kf8 Looks like Black holds here as well because of the counter play on the queen side. 39.Re2 Kg8 40.Kf2 Ba4 ! 
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*   cuts off the white king from ever making it to the queen side.]

31.dxe5 Be6 32.Rh1 c4 33.Be2 d4 34.Rh2

[34.Rh5 g6 35.Rh6 Rg7 (35...Rh7 36.Rxg6+ (36.Rxh7 Kxh7) 36...Kf7 37.Rg5 (37.Rf6+ Ke7 38.Rf1 Rh2) 37...Rh2 38.Rh5 Rh8 39.Rxh8 Rxh8 40.Rd1 Rh2 41.Ke1 Rh1+ 42.Bf1 Bd5 43.Rxd4 Bg2 44.Kf2 Bxf1 45.Rd1 Rh2+ 46.Kxf1 Ke7 47.b3 Rxc2 48.bxc4 Rxc4 This looks like it holds too since the ending looks drawn.) 36.Rd1 Kf7 37.Ke1 Rd8 38.Kf2 b5 39.Bf3 a5 40.Bc6 b4 41.axb4 axb4 42.Ke2 Rgg8   
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*   This is good.  I have no problems with this as Black.]

34...Bd5 35.Rd1 Rc7 36.Ke1 d3 37.cxd3 c3 38.bxc3 Rxc3 39.a4

[39.Ra1 Rec8 40.Kf2 b5 41.Ke3 Rd8 42.g4 fxg4 43.Bxg4 Bc4 44.Bf5 Bxd3 45.Be6+ Kf8 46.Rh8+ Ke7 47.Rxd8 Bg6+ 48.Kd4 Rd3+ 49.Kc5 Rxd8 50.f5 Bf7 51.Bxf7 Kxf7 52.e6+ Kf6 53.Re1 Re8 54.Kc6 a5 
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*   Black's queenside is serious so White has to take care of it but in the meantime Black will pick up the center pawns.]

39...Rec8 40.g4

[40.Rh5 g6 41.Rg5 Kf7 42.g4 fxg4 43.Bxg4 Rd8 44.f5 gxf5 45.Bxf5 Rc2 46.Rd2 Rc1+ 47.Ke2 Bc6 48.d4 Ra1 49.Rh5 Rg8 50.Rh2 Rg5 51.Bc2 Bd5 52.Ke3 Rg3+   
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*     Black has White tied down.]

40...fxg4 41.Bxg4 Rf8 42.Rh4 Ra3 43.Kd2 Rxa4 44.Ke3 g5 45.fxg5 b5 46.Rd2 Re8 47.d4 Ra3+ 48.Rd3 b4 49.Rh6 a5 50.Rg6+ Kf8 51.Rf6+ [51.Ra6 Rb8 52.Bf5 (52.Rh6 a4) 52...a4]

51...Kg7 52.Ra6 Rf8 -- Black's race is strong to give White a run for his money.

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*
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #101 - 03/01/14 at 23:08:33
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BladezII wrote on 03/01/14 at 22:57:44:
Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."

It looks like you threw out your plan out the window.

I will take a look at this new idea and the new line you provided.

I will post.


I looked at my first intention and I think Black can hold there. As I also said the fxe5 plan needs serious investigation also, and White has numerous promising plans.

I've picked one, so no back tracking here sonny.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #100 - 03/01/14 at 22:57:44
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Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."

It looks like you threw out your plan out the window.

I will take a look at this new idea and the new line you provided.

I will post.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #99 - 03/01/14 at 15:32:27
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Rightio lads and lasses, the latest installment of the ongoing debate about a middlegame/endgame which may or may not have some relevance to theory....

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8 21.Kf1 Qxg5 22.hxg5 Re7 23.f4 Rfe8 24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Ne5 Ng4

This is our position, now I propose a new move:

29.Ke2!? Nxe5 30.fxe5 c5 31.c3 c4 32.Bc2 g6 33.Rh1 Rh7 34.Kf3 Rxh1 35.Rxh1 Re6 36.Kf4
This is the point, with a king on g5 White plays Rb1,b3 and it turns out the endgame is extremely problematic for Black. I'll give an example how White can win. 36...Rb6 37.Rb1 Kg7 38.Kg5 Be6 39.a4 a5 40.b3! cxb3 41.Rxb3 Rxb3 42.Bxb3

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Might look like Black is holding, but no. I think this one is lost. 42...Bf7 43.Bd1 Be6 44.Be2 Bd7 45.c4 dxc4 46.Bxc4 Bxa4 47.d5 White wins.

Obviously all not forced but over to you to improve etc. show me how Black has active play etc.

I await with eagerness.
  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #98 - 03/01/14 at 07:16:55
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Quite right Bladez. I'll provide the moves later if you so wish.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #97 - 03/01/14 at 03:27:17
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Keano wrote on 02/28/14 at 22:46:57:
Bladez your line will not happen if you look at the plan I quoted earlier:

Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."


White should also investigate the fxe5 plan though, there are lots of continuations to look at.

Remember though we have gone down a very narrow path here the evaluation of which does not change the over-all evaluation of the ...c6 line as you seem to imply.

When this path is exhausted begins another, and then another, and so on, but ultimately it will be the OTB practical tests that are most important.

The Winawer exchange 4.exd5 is an important line that has been played by top Grandmasters for many years now. In particular Glek specialised and made it his main system against the French, scoring very well with it. It does have a dangerous sting, I've learnt that the hard way, so needs to be treated with a bit of respect.


Keano,

Your plan is just an intent expressed in words with no analysis.  It is a lot easier said than done. 
Remember we can do the same for Black.  Black may benefit from the h or g file being opened.  Black can walk his king to e6.  He can push for space and breaks on the queenside via ...c5 and prep it with ...b6 if he needs it.  The light squared bishop may move to a4 or h5 via e8.  BLack may seize more space by using his a pawn to a5 as well.   It also looks like in these types of positions it is Black who will be invading opponents's territory more than White.   The whole idea about white exchanging one rook may even help Black as well.

I do agree the evaluation for this line does not change, Black equalizes.  The position may be as edgy for White as for Black, both sides need to play energetically to make things happen.

Inferring or stating that White, in the opening, with just Ng3, will have the advantage as the outcome, that is not stagerring?   Let's be real.

No evaluation, no judgement of the position holds unless the analysis backs it up.

If I am willing to dig deep, real deep, it is because I am willing to put my hands to the fire that Black equalizes in the ...c6 line.  Or, like Eric said, Black is closer to equality than White is to an advantage.

If one makes a statement or adopts a posture that the exchange winawer should allow Black to equalize and get a good game, it does not mean we disrespect it.

I respect the Marshall gambit, but I am not going to ever say I disrespect the Ruy Lopez because the Marshall is just a big wall for White and White has nothing there for Black to doubt he will have a good game.

This is all important for theory.  These are all maps of ideas and terrain and features.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #96 - 02/28/14 at 22:46:57
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Bladez your line will not happen if you look at the plan I quoted earlier:

Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."


White should also investigate the fxe5 plan though, there are lots of continuations to look at.

Remember though we have gone down a very narrow path here the evaluation of which does not change the over-all evaluation of the ...c6 line as you seem to imply.

When this path is exhausted begins another, and then another, and so on, but ultimately it will be the OTB practical tests that are most important.

The Winawer exchange 4.exd5 is an important line that has been played by top Grandmasters for many years now. In particular Glek specialised and made it his main system against the French, scoring very well with it. It does have a dangerous sting, I've learnt that the hard way, so needs to be treated with a bit of respect.
« Last Edit: 03/01/14 at 00:42:42 by Keano »  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #95 - 02/28/14 at 21:37:40
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The last line posted, my line, it is staggering  to think White wants to think he is better and with 55 winning chance.

According to the position, after ...h6, after what was posted, White has to tread carefully and black gets a very active game.

White should, IMO, steer clear of 4.exd5 in the Winawer if he wants to play for a win with the highest of chances.  Life for Black in 4.exd5 is good even in the ...c6 line.

Unless you have something which contradicts my latest line,  and I feel confident now that Black is good, I will render your posture as pure wishful thinking.

With all due respect...
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #94 - 02/28/14 at 19:44:13
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Bladez, I would like to think I am being objective. I would like nothing better myself for this ...c6 line to be a good option for Black. I even remember when Ivanchuk played ...c6 in the olympiad and won a nice game as Black I looked enthusiastically because previously this was a problem line for me. Unfortunately the more I looked the more I found Ivanchuk's opponent had not played the strongest moves, and I got an uneasy feeling about it and ultimately rejected it.

Also read Erics comments and mine again. He says 55% and I say 55-60%  I never claimed 66% that is vastly too high.

Eric - agreed, we have gone far, many will say too far. But its like analyzing in the club, pick a line and dig into it at least gives you a feel for it. Like I said, no doubt both sides have better moves earlier, but its one example of what might happen.
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #93 - 02/28/14 at 19:26:48
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Well I prefer looking at these late middlegame positions over the Exchange French opening positions, honestly.  If nothing else, the lines we've all dug up have shown how much play there is in simple, "boring" positions, and that's always good to be reminded of.
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #92 - 02/28/14 at 19:25:29
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@Keano

You are being way way optimistic here or you just don't want to budge at all.

If you look at the lines I posted, the very last one, and if you read Eric's comments then now your comment of White being better or being in the 66% chance to win is one which I would say "Staggering".   You are entitled to your own opinion.

No way this line is something I would look forward to as White now if I was playing for a win.   The ...h6 line is just the real deal breaker here.
  

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