Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 74092 times)
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #31 - 02/10/14 at 09:53:13
Post Tools
It seems to me that the Xchange can both be a specific weapon against players with a negative score against it, a la Kortchnoi-Vaganian (or van Haastert, see pgn below) or a specialised line for White since there are a lot of moves and plans to choose from for both sides, and theory may not be too reliable for Black since it's still a rare line between really strong players.

For one thing, is 6...Bxc3 really Black's best or does it just give White the long term advantage of bishop pair or bishop vs knight? Especially ...Bxc3 combined with ...0-0-0 seems to be quite demanding to play as black.
A quick check in the base "2004-2014" "both 2400", showed that Black scores better with both 6...Be7 and even 6...Ba5 than with 6...Bxc3.

Btw, I doubt it has anything to do with 1.d4 e6 2.e4 and Black not being a devoted French player. An overwhelming majority of the Xgames start 1.e4, and if it was just about not having the French as your main defence then GMs like van Haastert or Vaganian etcetera wouldn't be losing as Black...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 73
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #30 - 02/10/14 at 00:54:40
Post Tools
I've said the same thing after my games.  It turns out the French transposition only happens to 1 . . . e6 against d4 player very rarely so they don't worry about it (not sure if the databases confirm this).  Incidentally, part of the idea in several of these games to play 1 . . . e6 in the first place was to get an asymmetrical game against a lower rated player (me) with the Dutch Stonewall or the English Defense to play for a win with Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #29 - 02/09/14 at 23:59:59
Post Tools
MaxJudd wrote on 02/09/14 at 23:25:54:
Where stronger players have a problem avoiding a draw as white against a lower rated player in the Exchange French is by transposition from d4 (where they were playing e6 for move order reasons, e.g., to avoid 2. Bg5 vs. the Dutch).  As the lower rated player, I have a fabulous record in this situation (both drawing where I have been out rated by 300 points several times and even picking up some wins where the higher rated player has over-reached).

The main reason is that not all players who play e6 against d4 play the French as their main defense against e4.  As such they don't seem as comfortable making the necessary unbalancing moves that John Cox and others suggest.  If they are strong enough, they seem to know that is the right approach but are scared to follow through. 

Instead, they try to simply outmaneuver without unbalancing moves by slowly making better move choices in a symmetrical set up.  This should work too (after all they are higher rated) but tends not to when the lower rated player is very familiar with the position (having played it many times from both sides) and the higher rated player has not.



They shouldn't be playing 1...e6 then!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #28 - 02/09/14 at 23:58:44
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/09/14 at 21:56:11:
For what it's worth, here's a GM-vs.-IM encounter from yesterday (Dutch league) I noticed which reminded me of this thread.




15...c6 looks wrong.

Also 13...Nh4 earlier well worth playing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 73
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #27 - 02/09/14 at 23:25:54
Post Tools
Where stronger players have a problem avoiding a draw as white against a lower rated player in the Exchange French is by transposition from d4 (where they were playing e6 for move order reasons, e.g., to avoid 2. Bg5 vs. the Dutch).  As the lower rated player, I have a fabulous record in this situation (both drawing where I have been out rated by 300 points several times and even picking up some wins where the higher rated player has over-reached).

The main reason is that not all players who play e6 against d4 play the French as their main defense against e4.  As such they don't seem as comfortable making the necessary unbalancing moves that John Cox and others suggest.  If they are strong enough, they seem to know that is the right approach but are scared to follow through. 

Instead, they try to simply outmaneuver without unbalancing moves by slowly making better move choices in a symmetrical set up.  This should work too (after all they are higher rated) but tends not to when the lower rated player is very familiar with the position (having played it many times from both sides) and the higher rated player has not.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4648
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #26 - 02/09/14 at 21:56:11
Post Tools
For what it's worth, here's a GM-vs.-IM encounter from yesterday (Dutch league) I noticed which reminded me of this thread.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #25 - 02/09/14 at 08:01:00
Post Tools
Quote:
Quote:
haven't got Berg's books yet, but noticed that he seemed to have relied on an interesting retreat 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nce7!? which looks sympathetic to me, Nb8 can be hard to activate so Nc6-e7 clears c6 for the pawn while covering f5 and Ng8 can go to its most active square... Does he mention this line in the book?

The only time he's played ...0-0-0 seems to be in that ...Nge7 line, and although he won, White looked better to me too.


Bergs choice is 6...Nge7 und he does not mention Nc6-e7.

I have Berg's book (French Defence - Volume one) and I confirm: no Nc6-Nce7 plan

I recorded only one time for not so many players
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #24 - 02/08/14 at 22:15:50
Post Tools
Quote:
haven't got Berg's books yet, but noticed that he seemed to have relied on an interesting retreat 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nce7!? which looks sympathetic to me, Nb8 can be hard to activate so Nc6-e7 clears c6 for the pawn while covering f5 and Ng8 can go to its most active square... Does he mention this line in the book?

The only time he's played ...0-0-0 seems to be in that ...Nge7 line, and although he won, White looked better to me too.


Bergs choice is 6...Nge7 und he does not mention Nc6-e7.

Quote:
But castling into a half open b-file may be one of those things Black needs to do sometimes to get counterchances. Any suggestions for rules of thumb under which circumstances ...0-0-0 is good and when it's too risky?


My two cents:

a) 0-0-0 could be a good option when Black can control the c4 square to prevent the pawn break c3-c4 and he has to hold the pawn d5 (which has no natural defender).

b) Berg runs in the following variation:



Generally Black plays here 15...Nxe3 but Berg shows that Black can face a problem here and recommends 15...Nd6. At the end he propose a slight improvement for Black: 19...Qf6 20.f3 Nd6 = with Na5-c4 coming next.

The problem is that White can play 16.Bg5!. Now after 16... Rde8 17.Rfe1 Black has to play 17...Ne4 and then White has can proceed with 18.Bxe4 dxe4 19.Qe2.

Of course, White gives up a valuable bishop but he gets compensation: he can now move his c- and d-pawns. I have analysed the position and noticed that White can place his queen on a6 or b5, Be3, Red1 and start an attack on the black king. He can use his a- , c- and/or d-Pawn to support the attack. It is important the black rook is not on d8 so d4-d5 can be a real threat. I do not think that the attack is deadly but Black has to defend the king and has no realistic counter chances. But he can have a much
easier life in the Winawer Exchange.

BTW 17...Qxe1 will end in a losing position for Black:



The game is not yet finished and we are some moves ahead so  i will not comment the endgame (White still has take to some hurdles) but is interesting that the engines realize that White has an advantage only late. When they see 17...Qxe1 they do not have 21.Qf6 on the map - for a long time. I saw the danger some days  to late (Christmas stress).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #23 - 02/07/14 at 13:00:44
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 02/07/14 at 11:31:51:
Probably depends on your tolerance for risk Smiley

The person I know who has played the exchange for a long time professes himself happy to see o-o-o from black.

I've sort of given up trying to do that and have found the positions getting reasonably unbalanced even after both players castle kingside.


Yes, that may be the simpler safer path. Though if Black already has the initiative in the centre or a pawn storm going on the k-side then ...0-0-0 may be the best follow up.

Perhaps also if the whitefielders are off, then ...0-0-0 would become more interesting. The game in my initial post should deter castling into it with the bishops on...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1984
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #22 - 02/07/14 at 11:31:51
Post Tools
Probably depends on your tolerance for risk Smiley

The person I know who has played the exchange for a long time professes himself happy to see o-o-o from black.

I've sort of given up trying to do that and have found the positions getting reasonably unbalanced even after both players castle kingside.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #21 - 02/07/14 at 10:26:29
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 02/06/14 at 23:45:09:
Yes, apologies Taljechin; had I read your thread more carefully I would have noticed that it was not on the usual topic but the related how-do-I-not-lose-to-the-Exchange topic, which is far more sensible (and one I have little to contribute to).

I'm not sure what your database research is supposed to suggest, but I assure you I've had plenty of games against the Exchange. I had it in the Lloyds Bank Masters I got my first IM norm in (1981, probably), the National Club final 1983 or so, against Dibyendu Barua in a weekender in about 1986, and in a local league and the Shropshire Open in the last couple of years, just off the top of my head. It doesn't surprise me to hear none of those games are in the databases.


No problem, it's easy to get stuck in a response pattern on the forum (I noticed that you had a similar entry at http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.se/2007/12/interesting-french-exchange.htm... some years ago).

In my database you have 37 French games, and even a nice win vs Fernandez at Lloyds Bank 1981. So, at least it's a funny coincidence that all your Exchange games have disappeared just when you mention them - Murphy's law perhaps?

I don't think I agree that the topic is "how-do-I-not-lose-to-the-Exchange", I'm more looking for a middleground between "no respect for the exchange due to it being misplayed by draw-seeking low rateds" which seem to be your position, and "the exchange is boring and drawish".

Imo the topic is "how to get reasonable counter chances when White is an equal or stronger opponent, i.e. not being forced to play for just the draw as black, while not taking too much of a risk either, as in 3/4...Qxd5 for example".

It would be interesting to see your solution to that, if you care to share a game or two? Btw, I just noticed that Kramnik has been using 3.exd5 (mainly blitz/rapid) since 1996, with a quite nice score, often choosing to delay Bd3 considerably.



Tullius wrote on 02/06/14 at 19:33:33:
Quote:
Regarding 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5, I don't think you can go too far wrong with Watson's recommendations (and he explicitly refers to both Vitugov and Simon Williams' book Attacking Chess: The French in places), as he offers choices between solid and sharp lines at key moments. In particular after 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3, Watson covers both 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 (which Vitugov regards as "asking for trouble") and 5...c6.


Vitugovs comment is spot on. In the variantion with a later 7...Nge7 8.Qh5 Be6 9.Rb1 b6 and later 0-0-0 Vitugov adds the black king can feel never safe. Berg underestimated it in his recent book. I followed Berg blindly (this is my fault of course) in a correspondence game and run with his recommendation quickly in trouble.

It seems to me that the best way for Black is 5...Nf6 (Moskalenko) or 5...c6.


I haven't got Berg's books yet, but noticed that he seemed to have relied on an interesting retreat 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nce7!? which looks sympathetic to me, Nb8 can be hard to activate so Nc6-e7 clears c6 for the pawn while covering f5 and Ng8 can go to its most active square... Does he mention this line in the book?

The only time he's played ...0-0-0 seems to be in that ...Nge7 line, and although he won, White looked better to me too. But castling into a half open b-file may be one of those things Black needs to do sometimes to get counterchances. Any suggestions for rules of thumb under which circumstances ...0-0-0 is good and when it's too risky?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #20 - 02/06/14 at 23:45:09
Post Tools
Yes, apologies Taljechin; had I read your thread more carefully I would have noticed that it was not on the usual topic but the related how-do-I-not-lose-to-the-Exchange topic, which is far more sensible (and one I have little to contribute to).

I'm not sure what your database research is supposed to suggest, but I assure you I've had plenty of games against the Exchange. I had it in the Lloyds Bank Masters I got my first IM norm in (1981, probably), the National Club final 1983 or so, against Dibyendu Barua in a weekender in about 1986, and in a local league and the Shropshire Open in the last couple of years, just off the top of my head. It doesn't surprise me to hear none of those games are in the databases.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #19 - 02/06/14 at 23:03:37
Post Tools
My own experience is similar to John Cox' experience. Lower rated players use the Exchange variation and seem surprised that they don't get an easy draw. I think I have a 100% record as Black in the exchange against players rated about the same or lower than me. I have lost  games against significantly higher rated opponents in the Exchange. I think I have one, maybe two draws in serious games, and they were against players rated about 50-150 points higher than myself.

In my experience, the better player wins in the Exchange variation.

I do find it amusing that there's an ever more common notion that if there are no games in the database, those games never happened. In the US, very few games make it to the databases.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #18 - 02/06/14 at 19:33:33
Post Tools
Quote:
Regarding 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5, I don't think you can go too far wrong with Watson's recommendations (and he explicitly refers to both Vitugov and Simon Williams' book Attacking Chess: The French in places), as he offers choices between solid and sharp lines at key moments. In particular after 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3, Watson covers both 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 (which Vitugov regards as "asking for trouble") and 5...c6.


Vitugovs comment is spot on. In the variantion with a later 7...Nge7 8.Qh5 Be6 9.Rb1 b6 and later 0-0-0 Vitugov adds the black king can feel never safe. Berg underestimated it in his recent book. I followed Berg blindly (this is my fault of course) in a correspondence game and run with his recommendation quickly in trouble.

It seems to me that the best way for Black is 5...Nf6 (Moskalenko) or 5...c6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1583
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #17 - 02/06/14 at 18:16:24
Post Tools
King recommends 4. exd5, as in the Winawer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo