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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 88304 times)
GabrielGale
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #46 - 02/13/14 at 02:11:47
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Check out IM Greet's blogpost on QC's blog on "Beating the Exchange French"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=2530

sorry, dfan just beat me to it!
  

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dfan
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #45 - 02/13/14 at 01:36:25
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Andrew Greet has just made a post with the title Beating the Exchange French over on the Quality Chess blog that may be of interest.
  
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MNb
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #44 - 02/12/14 at 21:51:34
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Thanks guys, that was very helpful. I tend to agree with this:

Keano wrote on 02/11/14 at 20:54:50:
I accept this whole plan with ...Bxc3 and 0-0-0 may not be theoretically best, but for me it leads to nice natural play and OTB this is more important for me.

It is attractive that Black's play is similar to 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 and castling queenside.
Practice seems to confirm this. Except for Timman losing as Black and winning as White the second player scores well, albeit in not too many games.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nge7 8.Qf3 Be6 9.Ne2 Qd7 10.Ng3 O-O-O 11.O-O and now h5 is interesting. Some sample lines which I absolutely haven't scrutinized:
a) 12.h3 h4 13.Nh5 Bf5 14.Nxg7 Bxh3 15.gxh3 Rdg8 16.Qxf7 Nd8 seems to end with a perpetual;
b) 12.h4 f6 13.Rd1 Rdf8 14.Qe2 Bg4 15.f3 Bf5 or 14.Re1 Bg4 15.Qe3 g5 (perhaps Rfg8 first) 16.hxg5 h4.

After 11.h3 Black might sac a pawn with f6 12.O-O h5 or try Rdf8 12.O-O f5 13.Nh5 f4 14.Re1 g5 15.Ng7 Bf5 16.Nxf5 Nxf5.

While I agree with IM Cox that it's silly to whine how boring the Exchange is it remains a valid question how to unbore the variation. It might be a trivial question for titled players, but not for amateurs like me.
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #43 - 02/12/14 at 20:43:40
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I think a lot of GM's might take White, but for a French player I have what I want, a complex double-edged position where I have some idea what I'm doing. The best player might win!!
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #42 - 02/12/14 at 18:50:02
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Keano wrote on 02/12/14 at 16:48:30:
TalJechin wrote on 02/12/14 at 16:24:27:
Doesn't that weaken the dark squares? My first thought was something with Bg5, either 12.Bg5 though 12...f6 might be playable. or simply 12.0-0 (or perhaps 12.a4) and if 12...Nf5 13.Bg5


Is that much of big deal? Eventually we'll want to push those pawns anyhow.
eg. ...Rde8 and if 14.Bf6 Rhg8 - I want to push with ...h5 and ...g5 eventually.


Well, in the long term it could be a very big deal... In the short term the engines seem to agree on a +0.30 for White, which could even be a good sign for Black as some of them start out much higher.

I'm not even sure if 11.h3 is necessary, as ...Bg4 may just kick the Q where she wants to go anyway, and without h3 Black's pawn storm may lack something to latch on to.
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #41 - 02/12/14 at 16:48:30
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TalJechin wrote on 02/12/14 at 16:24:27:
Doesn't that weaken the dark squares? My first thought was something with Bg5, either 12.Bg5 though 12...f6 might be playable. or simply 12.0-0 (or perhaps 12.a4) and if 12...Nf5 13.Bg5


Is that much of big deal? Eventually we'll want to push those pawns anyhow.
eg. ...Rde8 and if 14.Bf6 Rhg8 - I want to push with ...h5 and ...g5 eventually.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #40 - 02/12/14 at 16:24:27
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Keano wrote on 02/12/14 at 15:16:43:
What if I play the same type plan:

10.Ng3 0-0-0 11.h3 g6 12.0-0 Nf5

Giving me doubled f-pawns I'd love because I get the c4 square, and otherwise I can stay put or exchange or later even consider ...Nd6, ...Na5 -c4


Doesn't that weaken the dark squares? My first thought was something with Bg5, either 12.Bg5 though 12...f6 might be playable. or simply 12.0-0 (or perhaps 12.a4) and if 12...Nf5 13.Bg5
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #39 - 02/12/14 at 15:16:43
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What if I play the same type plan:

10.Ng3 0-0-0 11.h3 g6 12.0-0 Nf5

Giving me doubled f-pawns I'd love because I get the c4 square, and otherwise I can stay put or exchange or later even consider ...Nd6, ...Na5 -c4





  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #38 - 02/12/14 at 11:15:15
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I wonder how relevant Short-Timman, 1990 really is... White can of course play it differently in many ways, as in games between humans concentration and tactical alertness will be most important. Still, imo the simple plan of not allowing ...Bf5 is a good place to start for White (see my initial post for another example). Then White has a slightly larger margin of error, but any errors tend to be howlers anyway...

  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #37 - 02/12/14 at 10:31:40
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That move-order is a bit strange.
Normally they go 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Nf4 Bf5
Its not that big a deal but in the Qf3 line maybe Black should just go 10.Nf4 Bf5 - I can't see anything better for White than a transposition.

In the other line with the Queen on h5 Black has to allow Nxe6 iirc, but he hits the Queen with ...g6 then and plays ..Nf5 and is fine e.g:

8.Qh5 Be6 9.Rb1 b6 10.Nf3 Qd7 11.Ng5 0-0-0 12.Nxe6 Qxe6+ 13.Be3 g6 14.Qf3 Nf5
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #36 - 02/11/14 at 23:08:08
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Keano wrote on 02/10/14 at 19:18:24:
12...g5 13.Ne2 g4 followed by ...h5 etc,

Its just me but I really like playing these positions for Black, quite possibly I am not being objective based on past results but I just like it.

As I like your 13...g4 - it's an improvement on Short-Timman, Tilburg 1990 - I take the liberty to ask: have you similar recommendations against 11.Nxe6 and against 8.Qh5 as well?
  

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #35 - 02/11/14 at 20:54:50
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/11/14 at 16:01:57:
I think that 6...Bxc3 is more of a winning attempt/unbalancing attempt than necessarily the best move in that position.  On the other hand, the move that scores best in my database is 6...Bxa3, so if you really want a winning attempt... 

And Keano, if you prefer Black in those positions, I suspect that you value static things like pawn weaknesses a little more than dynamic things like the half open b-file leading to Black's king. 


Never had much of a problem with that b-file!

Needs to be kept an eye on mind.

I accept this whole plan with ...Bxc3 and 0-0-0 may not be theoretically best, but for me it leads to nice natural play and OTB this is more important for me.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #34 - 02/11/14 at 17:17:52
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/11/14 at 16:01:57:
I think that 6...Bxc3 is more of a winning attempt/unbalancing attempt than necessarily the best move in that position.  On the other hand, the move that scores best in my database is 6...Bxa3, so if you really want a winning attempt... 



Maybe it's more a losing attempt then? - just like 6...Bxa3  Grin

Or just stereotyped thinking, "I usually take on c3 so...". How else would one defend giving away the bishop pair in an open position?

I've been looking at it for several days now, and by now I actually like both sides! Smiley
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #33 - 02/11/14 at 16:01:57
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I think that 6...Bxc3 is more of a winning attempt/unbalancing attempt than necessarily the best move in that position.  On the other hand, the move that scores best in my database is 6...Bxa3, so if you really want a winning attempt... 

And Keano, if you prefer Black in those positions, I suspect that you value static things like pawn weaknesses a little more than dynamic things like the half open b-file leading to Black's king. 
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #32 - 02/10/14 at 19:18:24
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TalJechin wrote on 02/10/14 at 09:53:13:
It seems to me that the Xchange can both be a specific weapon against players with a negative score against it, a la Kortchnoi-Vaganian (or van Haastert, see pgn below) or a specialised line for White since there are a lot of moves and plans to choose from for both sides, and theory may not be too reliable for Black since it's still a rare line between really strong players.

For one thing, is 6...Bxc3 really Black's best or does it just give White the long term advantage of bishop pair or bishop vs knight? Especially ...Bxc3 combined with ...0-0-0 seems to be quite demanding to play as black.
A quick check in the base "2004-2014" "both 2400", showed that Black scores better with both 6...Be7 and even 6...Ba5 than with 6...Bxc3.

Btw, I doubt it has anything to do with 1.d4 e6 2.e4 and Black not being a devoted French player. An overwhelming majority of the Xgames start 1.e4, and if it was just about not having the French as your main defence then GMs like van Haastert or Vaganian etcetera wouldn't be losing as Black...



12...g5 13.Ne2 g4 followed by ...h5 etc,

Its just me but I really like playing these positions for Black, quite possibly I am not being objective based on past results but I just like it.
  
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