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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 108676 times)
Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #91 - 02/28/14 at 19:05:13
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/28/14 at 17:04:20:
I had a reply typed out but the forums going into maintenance mode lost it.  Anyway if "White has a lot more going for him than a bad bishop.  That's not what this position is about," then I really don't know what the position is about, I admit, because that's all I see going for White.  In your last diagram that's why White has winning chances, right?  Well that and the weakness on h7, which I want to get rid of with ...h6.

BladezII's line is very compliant; of course White will get excellent winning chances if he gets access to the dark squares, as I wrote before.  I suggest defending more naturally, using the temporary dynamic advantage of having the more active rooks and avoiding dark-square weaknesses.  There's a lot more to analyze, but something like this:



Regarding whether Black should want to play this way out of the opening, well, we're rather far afield and that wasn't my point.  I think you're vastly overrating White's winning chances, which in my opinion are very slight (maybe I'd expect a 55% or so score if played out hundreds of times at GM level) so long as Black doesn't go berserk and give White's king inroads.  That's my point.  Maybe you think the score would only be about 60% in which case we don't disagree very much.  But when I hear "two results" I think of 75%ish, and that's way too much in this position, IMO.

By the way I don't even think we're quite at an endgame yet, which is what my line with 6...g5!? was trying to show, though that could use checking with an engine (I haven't).  In principle though, Black is getting a ton of activity for a pawn.  After 7.Nxg5 Re3 8.Kg2 c5! 9.dxc5 Black's bishop is coming to c6 with a big attack--White can't just improve his position effortlessly, it's not an endgame yet.


Yes I saw this ...Ng4 move, it is a good move I think. But still in nearly all of the branches White is slightly better, although not much admittedly. I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising.

I think we are closer in agreement than you think. I would not put Whites winning chances anywhere near 75%. Somewhere between 55%-60% probably, which would be in the normal range for White.

The point I was more trying to make is that Black does not yet have complete "equality". OK, with good play he should draw it, but the same goes for any other opening! We have gone very deep here, and no doubt missed earlier good continuations for both sides, but its been worthwhile I think to demonstrate the nature of the whole line.

For this reason I much prefer the ...Nc6,...Bxc3+, ...0-0-0 plans for Black. Here I think Black gets more chances for dynamic play, and more chances to win the game. No doubt White has more chances to win also but thats the nature of chess!
  
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BladezII
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #90 - 02/28/14 at 18:45:51
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24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 !  (this is the correct idea) 

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27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Rd2 

[ A. 28.Kg2 Ng4 29.Rh1 Re2+ 30.Bxe2 Rxe2+ 31.Kg1 Rxc2 32.Rb1 Re2 This looks like it will be more difficult of an endgame for White than it will be for Black. Black will start to roll his g and f pawns up the board and at the same time hit both, White's g pawn and d-pawn.  White's game will be a bit too passive for my taste;
 
B. 28.Ne5 Ng4 29.Re1 Nxe5 30.fxe5 c5 31.c3 Kf7 32.Kg2 Rh8 33.Rh1 Ree8 34.Raf1 Ke7 35.Rxh8 

(35.dxc5 Rxh1 36.Kxh1 Rh8+ 37.Kg2 Rh5 38.b4 Ke6) 

35... Rxh8 36.Bxf5 Bxf5 37.Rxf5 cxd4 38.cxd4 Rc8 With a drawn rook endgame.]

28...Ng4 29.Ne5 g5 30.Re1 c5 31.Be2 

[31.Ree2 c4; 31.c3 c4 32.Bc2 Rh7 33.Ree2 Nxe5 34.Rxe5 Rxe5 35.dxe5 Kf7 36.Rxd5 Bc6 37.Rd6 Rh1+ Perpetual check  or Black gains the initiative. For example - 38.Ke2 Rh2+ 39.Kd1 Rh1+ 40.Kd2 Rh2+ 41.Kc1 Rh1+ 42.Rd1 Rh5 43.Rg1 g4]

31...Nxe5 32.dxe5 d4 33.Bf3 gxf4 34.gxf4 Rh7

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This position offers both, Black and White, trumps.  White may have a protected passed pawns, but Black has an advanced majority rolling down the queen side.  Black can easily deal with White's passed pawn, while Black's own pawns remain very mobile on the queenside.

In this line, Black enjoys good positions and very fun to play.  In some cases, in this line, it is White who has to play very carefully to not end up worse.  I would even say Black with this line has as much fun as White and in some cases more.  The principle is activity and playing energetically.

I can see the horizon now and I can stamp my name to the statement Black is doing good in the ...c6 line.
Yes, given this line, Black has a good game and very active game.  In fact, Black gives White good chances to go wrong at many points, just as White may think he gives Black chances to go wrong.  With the idea in this line of ...h6, White also has to step very carefully.

[EDIT : Eric, I apologize.  It seems we were working on the same idea with ...h6 -- and I had realized this was possible in the analysis I had and, unless I am mistaken, on one of my previous posts.  I do think this is the end of it now and I feel more confident than ever that Black is good here).
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #89 - 02/28/14 at 17:04:20
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I had a reply typed out but the forums going into maintenance mode lost it.  Anyway if "White has a lot more going for him than a bad bishop.  That's not what this position is about," then I really don't know what the position is about, I admit, because that's all I see going for White.  In your last diagram that's why White has winning chances, right?  Well that and the weakness on h7, which I want to get rid of with ...h6.

BladezII's line is very compliant; of course White will get excellent winning chances if he gets access to the dark squares, as I wrote before.  I suggest defending more naturally, using the temporary dynamic advantage of having the more active rooks and avoiding dark-square weaknesses.  There's a lot more to analyze, but something like this:



Regarding whether Black should want to play this way out of the opening, well, we're rather far afield and that wasn't my point.  I think you're vastly overrating White's winning chances, which in my opinion are very slight (maybe I'd expect a 55% or so score if played out hundreds of times at GM level) so long as Black doesn't go berserk and give White's king inroads.  That's my point.  Maybe you think the score would only be about 60% in which case we don't disagree very much.  But when I hear "two results" I think of 75%ish, and that's way too much in this position, IMO.

By the way I don't even think we're quite at an endgame yet, which is what my line with 6...g5!? was trying to show, though that could use checking with an engine (I haven't).  In principle though, Black is getting a ton of activity for a pawn.  After 7.Nxg5 Re3 8.Kg2 c5! 9.dxc5 Black's bishop is coming to c6 with a big attack--White can't just improve his position effortlessly, it's not an endgame yet.
  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #88 - 02/28/14 at 16:34:24
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See my previous post Eric, I think we posted around the same time...

For Bladez:
24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 Nd6 27.Ne5 Rc8 28.Kf2 
(Just on general principle I prefer to put the king on the black square. It may not make a big difference.)
28...c5 
(I presume this is still your plan - it is commital but it does free up some more breathing room for Black.)
29.dxc5 Rxc5 30.c3 Bb5 31.Bc2!?
(The most ambitious I think)
31...Nc4 32.Re1!? Nxe5 
[32...Nxb2 needs calculating but on first sight the tactics seem to be working for white after  33.Rab1 Na4 (33...Nc4 34.Nd3) 34.Rxb5 Rxb5 35.Bxa4 Ra5 36.Bb3 Rc7 37.Rd1 Rxc3 38.Bxd5+ Kf8 39.Rd2 Raxa3 40.Re2! just an example, that whole line needs checking] 33.Rxe5 Rxe5 34.fxe5 g6 35.a4 

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This is the ending I am aiming for - Black has two weak pawns :d5 and h7, and White has ideas of Ke3-d4 etc. 

Maybe instead of ...g6 better is ...Bd7, but eventually White can probably force the ..g6 move anyway, or bring the rook to the h-file via R-d1-d4-h4 tying the king to the h-pawn, when he also has g4 ideas.

We are getting very very deep, but lets step back a bit and think. Should Black be happy with these type of positions? In my opinion no, because he is slightly worse with no winning chances, on a good day he will draw it, on a bad one he will lose it.
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #87 - 02/28/14 at 12:13:48
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By the way, without using an engine, one big idea I have for Black is the following:


This is why I said that avoiding the rook exchange was probably too sophisticated for White's own good, and here it's clear that Black is the one with the active pieces.

White might be a hair better in the initial position, but White needs a different idea. 
  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #86 - 02/28/14 at 12:11:40
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"just a draw" is a tad too simplistic in my humble opinion.

Maybe Black can indeed draw it, but not without a bit of suffering along the way. The good thing for White is that he is playing for 2 results.

After your 24...Nh8 White should go 25.Ng1 (that is the plan, ...Re3 can be answered Kf2)

24...Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Ne5 

White is in time to keep things under control. 

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I'm claiming at least slight advantage here, with minimal risk. White can play on both sides, if you want we can analyse it more. White has a lot more going for him here than simply a bad bishop to play against. Thats not what the position is about.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #85 - 02/28/14 at 11:51:26
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Keano wrote on 02/28/14 at 11:08:00:
"To win White will have to trade everything but that bishop and then penetrate with his king on the dark squares"

I don't agree - White has more active pieces, for me the plan will be to eventually penetrate with the rooks, although of course it all depends.

Looks like I have 2 lines to look at now  Wink


Well, eventually penetrating with the king on the dark squares is just how such endings are won--otherwise it's just a draw, despite the bad bishop.  There's some play in the position before a pure minor piece endgame, sure, but I don't see how White can activate the rooks without exchanging them, and in the line I gave (maybe White has a better first two moves, but they are the ones you suggested), 1...Nh8! 2.Kf2 Nf7 3.Ng1 h6!?, 4.gh Nxh6 is forced when the knight becomes very active, i.e. ...Ng4-e3 is a constant idea.  

White might have better chances if his pawn weren't on f4, but with Black's pawn position completely fluid he'll likely never set up a real blockade that will allow his king's access to f4, and then e5 or g5, or conversely squares on the queenside like d4, c5, etc.  

Here's one (of thousands) of examples:



White ends up winning these positions because of the weakness of the dark squares, though even in the above game Black's play could be improved and he has drawing chances (I remember it from a Dvoretsky book, but I don't have the book or analysis with me).  

It's odd to me that you say White has more active pieces when Black's rooks are doubled on the open file.  White's bishop is more active than Black's but that's all, and meanwhile Black's rooks keep White's pieces tied down to guarding the entry points (especially after Black's knight gets to h6).  Of course White can "solve" that problem by exchanging off all of the rooks, but then he's left with the minor piece endgame where I don't see how he can make progress.

Anyway that's my take, having failed to win dozens of such positions on the White side by thinking that I had chances with my better bishop.  You need a second weakness, and you really need it to be a way to penetrate with your king, otherwise White has nothing. 
  
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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #84 - 02/28/14 at 11:08:00
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"To win White will have to trade everything but that bishop and then penetrate with his king on the dark squares"

I don't agree - White has more active pieces, for me the plan will be to eventually penetrate with the rooks, although of course it all depends.

Looks like I have 2 lines to look at now  Wink
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #83 - 02/28/14 at 01:39:52
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Keano wrote on 02/28/14 at 00:04:59:
And if I play the same plan as before to try and keep rooks:

24. Red1

My plan is Kf2,Ng1-f3 etc.

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Doesn't seem like much fun for Black to me...


I don't have an engine (on someone's mobile), but 1...Nh8 2.Kf2 Nf7 3.Ng1 h6 looks eminently fine for Black to me.  Are you overvaluing Black's French bishop?  Black can bring the knight to d6 and play ...b6 and especially hit the g5-pawn.  If White takes, the knight can go via h6 to g4.  I think that avoiding the rook exchange is too sophisticated for White's own good.

The only thing wrong with Black's position is his bad bishop, which means he's potentially weak on the dark squares.  To win White will have to trade everything but that bishop and then penetrate with his king on the dark squares, but I don't see how that's going to happen.  If White tries to create a second weakness or open lines somewhere else (the queenside?), it's likely to activate Black's bishop or let him exchange it off.  

Edit: I see that I somehow missed BladezII's post, I'll look at his line later maybe.  But these kinds of positions don't pose Black many problems.  If his d5-pawn were isolated and White had access to d4 for his king that'd be different, etc. 
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #82 - 02/28/14 at 00:34:28
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Then Black follows the same plan as in the lines I provided -  position the knight, then position the bishop, and eventually it looks like White faces nothing, but a handshake.

For example -

24...Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 Nd6 27.Ne5 Rc8 28.Kg2 c5 29.dxc5 Rxc5 30.c3 g6 31.Re1 Bb5 32.Kf3 Kg7

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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #81 - 02/28/14 at 00:04:59
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And if I play the same plan as before to try and keep rooks:

24. Red1

My plan is Kf2,Ng1-f3 etc.

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Doesn't seem like much fun for Black to me...
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #80 - 02/27/14 at 21:52:23
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Thanks for the post.

I am glad you followed my line.  And it is now very clear that black equalizes here, unless I am missing something else here.

Let me explain what I mean.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8 

21.Kf1 Qxg5   No one had mentioned this but this is the easiest.

22.hxg5 Re7 

23.f4 

[23.Rad1 Rfe8 24.Ng1 f4 25.Bxg6 hxg6 26.gxf4 Re4]

23...  Rfe8 

24.Ng1 

[24.Kf2 Nf8 25.Ng1 Rxe1 26.Rxe1 Rxe1 27.Kxe1 Kf7 28.Nf3 Ng6]

24    ...Rxe1+   25.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 26.Kxe1 Nh8 27.Nf3 Nf7 28.Kd2 Nd6 29.Ne5 Be8 

[Black gets the bishop to the open diagonal and the knight is ready for Ne4.  Black is equal here.]


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Keano
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #79 - 02/27/14 at 10:21:55
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Sorry Bladez I've been busy.

I'll follow one of your lines to show you what I'm at:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8 21.Kf1 Re7 22.Qxf6 Rxf6 

I think this is where you stopped - I think if Black can swap all the rooks he should be OK, ideally I'd like to swap just one and play for a nice edge, here is an example how:

23.f4 Rfe6 24.Red1!
(White can afford to temporarily give the e-file to avoid mass exchanges)

24...Re3 25.Kf2 Nh8 26.Ng1 Nf7 27.Nf3 Nh6 28.Ne5 Ng4+ 29.Kg2 Nf6 30.Re1 Rxe1 31.Rxe1 



And White is playing for the win with a stable edge and minimal risk. Obviously not all forced but you get the idea.

I have other preparation to do so if I don't get back immediately please be patient! You might have to wait a week or so, lots of things going on now.
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #78 - 02/27/14 at 02:14:54
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No answer to my proposed line yet... 

Anyone else who has taken a look at this other line for Black which I posted above have any input or thoughts ?
  
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Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #77 - 02/22/14 at 21:13:17
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Keano wrote on 02/22/14 at 20:51:18:
Sorry Bladez, I was perhaps too critical in my choice of language, I apologise.

What I meant is that I believe White may be able to get a slight edge in the ...c6 line, but of course the position is well playable for Black. Its a very solid line.

Also as I said I do intend to come back and continue the discussion, since I am playing chess this weekend preparing for my opponents is a little more urgent at the moment!
I just looked at your new idea, going ...f5 is interesting to grab a bit of space.

As I am trying to explain I object to the use of absolute language such as you used when you said Black had complete equality in all three lines. I do find that a staggering statement, but you are perfectly entitled to believe it, so sorry if I offended you.



Apologies accepted.  I hope we continue the ...c6 discussion.
  
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