Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5 (Read 85710 times)
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2264
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #136 - 03/08/14 at 06:30:20
Post Tools
Generally, it would be helpful if members were to view discussions here as a way to collaboratively seek 'truth'. In a board game.
I have been a bit baffled by the confrontational aspect here, the unnecessarily brusque comments, as Keano noted.
This is no battle, this is not the Ok Corall.
Chill people, exchange opinions and ideas, work together to make progress. BladezII - perhaps you could ease up the tone a little.
Back to chess, ...c6 wasn't it...?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #135 - 03/08/14 at 03:24:35
Post Tools
Edited:
I will delete posts that are only personal attacks. Members may send each other messages, you don't need to pollute the forums with personal attacks.
~SF March 7th, 2014


Added on March 7, 2014:

Edited:
If the personal attacks continue, this thread will be locked.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #134 - 03/06/14 at 00:42:51
Post Tools
I stand corrected.

Black should indeed look to

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. exd5 exd5 5. Bd3 c6

6. Nge2 Nf6

Since this definitely looks better and "it should equalize".

IM Watson also responded to the discussion, he provides another line, outside of my ...f5 idea, which he likes for Black. It is in his most recent update.  It also looks good.

Kudos.

  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #133 - 03/06/14 at 00:26:55
Post Tools
...OK lets look 58..Rd1 is even quicker:
(55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5 58.Rxc4)

58...Rd1  59.Kb5 Ke6 60.Rc6+ Kd7 61.e6+ Ke7 62.Kc4 All over.
...

Edited:
Edited to remove personal attacks ~SF 3/7/14
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:50:01 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #132 - 03/06/14 at 00:13:29
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 03/06/14 at 00:06:35:
There is a problem with the line you gave.  I don’t know if you caught it.  I don’t think so.


55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5
58.Rxc4

58...Rd1 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 a5 61.Kc4 a4 62.Ra3 Rc1+ 63.Kd3 Rd1+ 64.Ke4 Re1+ 65.Kf4 Rf1+ 66.Kg4 Rg1+ 67.Kf3 Rf1+ 68.Ke2 Rb1 69.Rxa4 Rb3

And White, again, is cut off.

You convinced yet ?  It’s just the internet .  ☺


Another try?
55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5 58.Rxc4 Rb1+ 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 a5 61.d5+ Kxe5 62.d6 Ke6 63.Kc6 Rd1 64.Re3+ Kf7 65.d7
Again all over.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #131 - 03/06/14 at 00:06:35
Post Tools
There is a problem with the line you gave. 

55...Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5
58.Rxc4

58...Rd1 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 a5 61.Kc4 a4 62.Ra3 Rc1+ 63.Kd3 Rd1+ 64.Ke4 Re1+ 65.Kf4 Rf1+ 66.Kg4 Rg1+ 67.Kf3 Rf1+ 68.Ke2 Rb1 69.Rxa4 Rb3

And White, again, is cut off.

Edited:
Edited to remove a personal attack ~SF 3/7/14
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:48:51 by Smyslov_Fan »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #130 - 03/05/14 at 23:48:37
Post Tools
...The position is lost. ...

The line you just gave there loses even easier:

54.Kd2 Rg1 55.Rc5 Ke6 56.Kc3 Rc1+ 57.Kb4 a6 58.Ra5!  Again Black can resign.



Edited:
Edited to remove a perceived personal attack. ~SF 3/7/14



« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:48:13 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #129 - 03/05/14 at 23:37:22
Post Tools
Here is something out of the manual -


54.Kd2 Rg1

55.Rc5 Ke6

56.Kc3 Rc1+


57.Kb4 a6

[ Black is aiming to cut off the White king, something he will accomplished if White ever reaches the a file and Black cuts off the White king.  The same principle, again, applies here.  Let me show you, it’s not surprising and it is simple.  I am amazed you did not think about this.


58.Rxc4
White can do this but not place his king on the a - file.




58...Rb1+ 59.Kc3 Rc1+ 60.Kd3 Rd1+ 61.Ke3 (61.Ke2 Rg1) 61...Re1+   Repeating the position, again.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Anything else ?
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #128 - 03/05/14 at 22:59:20
Post Tools
eh? No like I said Rc5 is the idea, obviously Black can draw if White plays like an idiot.

Actually I'm pretty sure its winning now, had a chance to look at it today.

53.Ke3 Re1+ 54.Kd2 Rg1 55.Rc5 Ke6 56.Kc3

White wins in all lines. Its not surprising really.

I'll bore you through the winning technique if you like, its straight out of the manuals:

56...Rc1+ 57.Kb4 Kf5 (all moves lose but I'll give this line as an illustration)
58.Rxc4 Rb1+ 59.Kc5 Ke6 60.Rc3 Rb2 61.Kc4 Rb1 62.Kd3 Rd1+ 63.Ke3 Re1+ 64.Kd2 Ra1 65.Rc6+ Ke7 [65...Kd5 66.Rd6+ Ke4 67.e6 wins]
66.Kd3 a5 67.Ra6 and Black can resign.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #127 - 03/05/14 at 22:13:17
Post Tools
Keano,

You should see and test this position out yourself.  It is easy.  Play the black side, perhaps you will appreciate what I am talking about in this position.

After

52 ...   Rd1  (forcing your king right back down to cover the pawns )

53.  Ke3  Re1+  and again, white is forced to back down and come back.

54.Kd2 Rg1 55.Rd7+

[If white decides to try to make a run for it with his king, then simply ... 55.Ke3 Re1+

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

And now white has to come back down again, and go no where.]

55...Ke6 56.Rd6+ Kf5 57.Rf6+ Ke4 58.Rd6

[If now White tries to push his pawns up, then the White King is cut-off.  I said all this in a few posts above, you should read it again.  The ideas are simple to see and equally simple to apply in OTB.]


58...Kf5 59.e6 Kf6 60.d5 Rg3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

[Sealing the White king from the pawns and Black now can more easily restrain them.]

61.Rd7 c3+ 62.Kc2 Re3 63.Rc7 Ke5 64.Rxc3 Re4 65.Rd3 Kd6
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
[And now you should see this is absolutely even more obvious than before -  it is a dead draw.]

  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #126 - 03/05/14 at 00:55:00
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 03/05/14 at 00:34:37:
Did it sink in by just what you saw, that this is easily drawn?  Did you see White is tied down and he cannot walk away ?

This is easy for Black to see, even in OTB.


You're a better man than me then, like I said I am just being honest I would love to play White. If you say it is drawn and you have analysed everything I believe you.

After 52...Rd1 I play 53.Ke3 followed by Rc5. Looks very convincing to me. But obviously I am just missing something.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
« Last Edit: 03/05/14 at 08:53:01 by Keano »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #125 - 03/05/14 at 00:34:37
Post Tools
Did it sink in by just what you saw, that this is easily drawn?  Did you see White is tied down and he cannot walk away ?

This is easy for Black to see, even in OTB.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #124 - 03/05/14 at 00:08:04
Post Tools
going on my human evaluation on this one, I'd be delighted to get that endgame - if you tell me it is drawn I believe you, but I have to be honest, I'd be delighted with that ending and pretty confident.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #123 - 03/04/14 at 23:45:10
Post Tools
after

52.Kf4  then

52...  Rd1

and your king is coming right back down, and the rest of the line follows that idea throughout many branches. 
White is tied down.

Don't even bother with the program's evaluation.  The fact is there, and it is glaring.   White is tied down to the pawns, and the black king menaces the pawns, and in the mean time, Black's pawns are still mobile.

Why do I get the feeling some people think one side has the advantage based on what the program evaluates ?   I have seen enough times programs evaluating 1.00 +  but it ends up repeating a patter of moves which lead nowhere but round about in a circle and repeating positions.

This is one of those cases.  The truths are there, and I smile when I see these things.  Humans, for the most part still are the best evaluators of positions.

« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:46:28 by Smyslov_Fan »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #122 - 03/04/14 at 23:22:13
Post Tools
If you say you have it analysed to move 60-63 I'll take your word for it, looks very dodgy to my eye after 52.Kf4

I'd be delighted to get that endgame.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #121 - 03/04/14 at 22:57:57
Post Tools
51... Rd3

And Black ties up the White rook to the d-pawn while retaining pawn mobility.  And if the White king comes any close to the c-pawn, he runs the risk of being cut-off from the center pawn and the Black king stops them with the black rook.

I got this line analyzed to moves 60-63.  It goes no where.

Anything else ?

Edited:
Edited to remove inflammatory speech ~SF 3/7/14
« Last Edit: 03/08/14 at 06:45:15 by Smyslov_Fan »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #120 - 03/04/14 at 21:08:40
Post Tools
oof - that last line is coming mighty close mind.
What about  47.Rxg6 Rxc3 48.Rd6 Rxg3+ 49.Kxf5 Rf3+ 50.Kg4 Rxa3 51.Rxd5

I'd fancy my two passers there.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #119 - 03/04/14 at 20:26:46
Post Tools
I did not include Rb1 because a4 seemed stronger and more ambitious.

The line after Rb1, which I have analyzed before, seems to lead straight to a drawn endgame.

But it makes sense for you to go Rb1 since it is already shown that the other option goes no where.

Again, white has no slight edge since Black immediately gets counter play on the queen side and White seems forced (if he gets too ambitious ) to take a draw by repetition.   For example -

37.Ke3 Rb6 38.Rb1

38...  Kg7 39.Kf4 Kh6 40.Rh1+ Kg7 41.bxc4 bxc4 42.Kg5 Rb2 43.Rb1 Rxc2 44.Rb7 Kf7 45.Rxd7+ Ke6 46.Rd6+ Kf7 47.Rxd5 Rxc3 48.Rd7+ Ke6 49.Rd6+ Kf7 50.Rd7+ Ke6 51.Rd6+ Kf7

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

White seems forced to draw here by repetition since Black is ready to clean up the pawns and queen his own pawn.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #118 - 03/04/14 at 19:49:38
Post Tools
I thought 37.Ke3 was new in that line for some reason. I must have been mistaken I see you give 37...Rb6 instead of 37...Rc6. Apologies.

After 37...Rb6 I'd probably go 38.Rb1 trying to angle for a similar structure as the line I gave earlier if possible.

I think White is slightly better and you presumably think Black is equal. Lets leave it at that!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #117 - 03/04/14 at 18:45:08
Post Tools
Keano,

Also, I have indeed covered the 33.fxe5 already.   Pay close attention to the posts above and you will find that line was already covered in detail.

Cheers, and there is nothing personal.  This is just a discussion.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #116 - 03/04/14 at 18:24:04
Post Tools
Bladez try not to take it personal. Its only a chess position!

It is my firm opinion that White is better here, an opinion based on my personal experience and intuition, and what little analysis I have done. Because after all we have barely scratched the surface here.

If you disagree with that then fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion. I accept that you feel strongly for Black's cause, and I can respect that.

To sum up, lets just agree to disagree.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #115 - 03/04/14 at 18:02:56
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 03/04/14 at 09:56:47:
No doubt a comp could defend it, but I'd fancy my chances there against a human opponent.

If White prefers not to sacrifice anything he can go for the other line:
33.fxe5 Rh7 34.Rh1 Rxh1 35.Rxh1 Re6 36.b3 b5 37.Ke3! Rc6 38.bxc4 Rxc4 39.Kd2 Rc7 40.Bd1 Be6 41.Bf3 White is better in the endgame.
41...Rh7 swapping rooks here leads to a lost endgame, this illustrates the possibilities:
42.Rxh7 Kxh7 43.Kc2 g5 44.Kb3 a5 45.a4 bxa4+ 46.Kxa4 Kg6 47.Kxa5 White wins

The beauty is he has so many promising lines to choose from. In fact the more we look the more I think it may be even more than just a slight edge, but in any case White should be happy with a slight edge that is safe as the result of any opening.



You say that as to infer we should be naive to believe White has not been using a comp to play the white side in this discussion.

What I have shown is the ideas.  Once you play the ideas out, like you would even from an opening book, you start remembering the ideas too.

White has been using a comp too, AND, it has been clear that White has had to defend many times, and yes, playing with a comp as white is "easy", just to make sure he does not get horribly tied down, and yet, in some lines, even with the help of a comp, he does get tied down, I have shown that already.

There has been nothing nowhere, not in all the lines I have challenged, where White ends up better, a computer evaluations is not precise, but I have shown that too.  In face I have seen that a lot while going over these lines.

I will check if I have not covered the fxe5 line already.

But so far all the doors keep closing on white, and you are running out of options.  But you keep believing white is better.  If White was truly better, the doors should be closing on Black at that rate, but not the other way around.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #114 - 03/04/14 at 09:56:47
Post Tools
No doubt a comp could defend it, but I'd fancy my chances there against a human opponent.

If White prefers not to sacrifice anything he can go for the other line:
33.fxe5 Rh7 34.Rh1 Rxh1 35.Rxh1 Re6 36.b3 b5 37.Ke3! Rc6 38.bxc4 Rxc4 39.Kd2 Rc7 40.Bd1 Be6 41.Bf3 White is better in the endgame.
41...Rh7 swapping rooks here leads to a lost endgame, this illustrates the possibilities:
42.Rxh7 Kxh7 43.Kc2 g5 44.Kb3 a5 45.a4 bxa4+ 46.Kxa4 Kg6 47.Kxa5 White wins

The beauty is he has so many promising lines to choose from. In fact the more we look the more I think it may be even more than just a slight edge, but in any case White should be happy with a slight edge that is safe as the result of any opening.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #113 - 03/04/14 at 08:28:30
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 03/04/14 at 07:39:03:
After 33...Bc6 the idea was 34.Rh1!? to sacrifice the exchange for two connected passers if Black plays ...d4. That looked dangerous to me at first sight.
33...Bc6 34.Rh1 d4 35.cxd4 Bxh1 36.Rxh1 Rd8 37.Kc3

If Black doesn't take the exchange White will just be better, so that looks critical.

Needs to be checked if this is working but certainly looks excellent practical chances. Otherwise I'll check the fxe5 line. The great thing for White is he has so much choice of lines which all lead to a slight edge.



I ran that end game.  I just did not provide the whole line of it.  White runs into a wall there too because the black rooks will infiltrate on the h file and on the c file.  The black king will also just blockade the pawn break. 

Smiley 

Did anyone mention the ... c6 followed by ...Nf6 idea ? 

  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #112 - 03/04/14 at 07:39:03
Post Tools
After 33...Bc6 the idea was 34.Rh1!? to sacrifice the exchange for two connected passers if Black plays ...d4. That looked dangerous to me at first sight.
33...Bc6 34.Rh1 d4 35.cxd4 Bxh1 36.Rxh1 Rd8 37.Kc3

If Black doesn't take the exchange White will just be better, so that looks critical.

Needs to be checked if this is working but certainly looks excellent practical chances. Otherwise I'll check the fxe5 line. The great thing for White is he has so much choice of lines which all lead to a slight edge.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #111 - 03/03/14 at 21:18:42
Post Tools
Are you saying white keeps an edge after the recapture with the d-pawn now ?

Can you show it ?

The only one providing lines here is me.  You are mostly providing words.

What are you intending ?

if White takes with the d-pawn then

33...   Bc6

and now white has to deal with Black's d-pawn break or an advance on the queenside by Black, or Black invading on the h-file if White does not challenge  Black down the h-file.  White's bishop is even more limited in movement and does not seem able to do much now.

Handshake. 

I think I am done here.  It was a great discussion, Keano. 

Looking back through all the posts, I noticed no one brought up the line

5...    c6 
6. Nge2   Nf6

Which is another great line in the 5... c6 variation.  Anyone has any thoughts on that ?
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #110 - 03/03/14 at 20:28:12
Post Tools
hmmmmm. after 32...Nxe5 I think I'd ideally like to recapture 33.dxe5 in that position - opens up the d4 square and exposes the d5 pawn more. What were you intending there?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #109 - 03/03/14 at 19:29:00
Post Tools
29.Ke2 c5 30.c3 g6
31.Kd2  c4

32.Bc2 This is your new proposal.   OK, here we go -

32...   Nxe5

33.fxe5 Rh7
34.Rh1 Rxh1
35.Rxh1 Re6
36.b3 b5

[Active play and Black seeking his on break on the queenside is key.]

37.Ke3 Rb6 38.a4 bxa4 39.bxc4 Rb2 40.Bd3 Be6 41.cxd5 Bxd5 42.Ra1 Ra2 43.Rg1 Ra3 44.g4 Rxc3 45.Kd2 Rb3 46.gxf5 a3 47.Bc2 Rb4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

[White is tied down by Black, who's pawn is perhaps more dangerous than White's.]

This was never a correspondence game.  Your opponent will never send you 10-18 moves and will not send 2-3 different variations just in case you go here or there.  He won't even show you where you should go.  This is a discussion.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #108 - 03/03/14 at 18:32:54
Post Tools
I think the Bishop belongs on c2 to shut down the counterplay possibility on the b2 pawn by Rb1,b3 etc, similar to a line I posted earlier.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #107 - 03/03/14 at 18:14:06
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 03/03/14 at 09:48:20:
OK I'll look at your main move 30...g6

Then I go 31.Kd2 c4 32.Bc2 again with a slight advantage.

You can let me know what you intend, but as I said this is in danger of turning into a correspondence game. All that really interests me is if White is better or not, which is clear enough to me, if Black can hold an endgame in 40 or 45 moves with correct play should not really be surprising, but it will be another thing to replicate this over the board.



Black is not just holding.  White also has to play accurately, not just to try to be on top, Black's position is dynamic, and he can put white on the ropes quickly.

I will look. I have covered that line, but not with Bc2.  I will post shortly.

Also, we both know engines are used here, and in OTB, Black's position is like a spring which can, at any point, pop and the effect can be hard for White.  In OTB you will not have an engine like you do now, that is the case for both sides.  As is the case when engines are used, in a perfect game, black can hope to draw.  I am sure Black will not be playing vs a perfect game in OTB.  Keep that in mind.

I have shown and shut down the door on just anything you have thrown.  You are running out of more options as time goes on.  I can see the horizon effect already.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #106 - 03/03/14 at 09:48:20
Post Tools
OK I'll look at your main move 30...g6

Then I go 31.Kd2 c4 32.Bc2 again with a slight advantage.

You can let me know what you intend, but as I said this is in danger of turning into a correspondence game. All that really interests me is if White is better or not, which is clear enough to me, if Black can hold an endgame in 40 or 45 moves with correct play should not really be surprising, but it will be another thing to replicate this over the board.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #105 - 03/03/14 at 01:15:08
Post Tools
Kylemeister is right. 30.c3 was my intention to 29...c5.

now what is your intended move? 30...c4 or 30...g6

I cannot be wasting time on two  Undecided

I'm tempted to give up here on the basis of lack of endurance, but I think I've shown enough idea's for White already to be able to find some more.

Bare in mind I am talking about this line in use in a practical OTB game, correspondence frankly doesn't interest me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #104 - 03/02/14 at 04:18:28
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/02/14 at 01:23:55:
I presumed the idea was to meet 29...c5 with 30. c3 ...


I will bite, Kyle.

29.Ke2 c5 30.c3 g6

[30...c4 Even with this I would wage we will have a drawn endgame. 31.Bc2 Re6 32.Bxf5

(32.Rh1 g6 33.Kd2 R8e7 This transposes to the line I discuss below.)

32...Rxe5+ 33.dxe5 Bxf5 34.Rxd5 Kf7 35.Rh1 Nh6]

31.Rh1 [31.Kd2 c4 32.Be2 Nf2]

31...c4 32.Bc2 Re6 33.Kd2 R8e7 34.Rag1

[34.Rae1 Be8 35.Rh4

(35.Bd1 Nf2 36.Rh2 Ne4+ 37.Ke3 Rh7)

35...Nf6 36.Reh1 Rh7 37.Rxh7 Nxh7 38.g4 fxg4 39.Nxg4 Nf6

(39...Rb6 40.Kc1 Nf6 41.Ne5 Nh5 Because of transposition, this looks fine too.)

40.Ne5 Rb6]

34...Be8 35.Bd1 [35.Rh4 Nf6 36.Rgh1 Rh7 37.Rxh7 Nxh7 38.g4 fxg4 39.Nxg4 Nf6]

35...Nf2 36.Rh2 Ne4+ 37.Ke3 Rh7 38.Rxh7 Kxh7 39.g4 Rb6 40.Rg2 Nd6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

[This is going no where.  Black will have a grip on e4, will be free to move his knight in and out of that square or move to f7 then d6 again and wait to see where White goes.  Also, Black will still pressures White on the b file.]
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4713
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #103 - 03/02/14 at 01:23:55
Post Tools
I presumed the idea was to meet 29...c5 with 30. c3 ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #102 - 03/02/14 at 00:40:33
Post Tools
No need to backtrack, Black holds in the other plan too and he has a good game.  We can investigate that all you want too.

Cheesy

Now, moving on to the new stuff you have proposed.

23...Rfe8 24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Ne5 Ng4

29.Ke2 c5

[This is the right idea.  Black needs to take space and get his majority rolling.]

30.Kd2 Nxe5

[30...c4 This path seems to draw as well by using a counter attack on the queenside to balance white's threats on the k-side. 31.Be2 Nf2 32.Rg1 Ne4+ 33.Ke3 Ba4 34.Rg2 (34.c3 Nf6 35.Bf3 Re6 36.Rg2 R8e7 37.Rh1 g6 38.Rgh2 Rb6 This is a lock up.  White is tied down to defend the queen side and Black is equally engaged on the K-side, but this seems like balanced attack and counter-attack by both sides) 34...Re6 Same idea as in the other line and this is likely to transpose. 35.Bf3 Rb6 36.c3 Nf6 37.Rh1 Bd7 38.Rgh2 Kf8 Looks like Black holds here as well because of the counter play on the queen side. 39.Re2 Kg8 40.Kf2 Ba4 ! 
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*   cuts off the white king from ever making it to the queen side.]

31.dxe5 Be6 32.Rh1 c4 33.Be2 d4 34.Rh2

[34.Rh5 g6 35.Rh6 Rg7 (35...Rh7 36.Rxg6+ (36.Rxh7 Kxh7) 36...Kf7 37.Rg5 (37.Rf6+ Ke7 38.Rf1 Rh2) 37...Rh2 38.Rh5 Rh8 39.Rxh8 Rxh8 40.Rd1 Rh2 41.Ke1 Rh1+ 42.Bf1 Bd5 43.Rxd4 Bg2 44.Kf2 Bxf1 45.Rd1 Rh2+ 46.Kxf1 Ke7 47.b3 Rxc2 48.bxc4 Rxc4 This looks like it holds too since the ending looks drawn.) 36.Rd1 Kf7 37.Ke1 Rd8 38.Kf2 b5 39.Bf3 a5 40.Bc6 b4 41.axb4 axb4 42.Ke2 Rgg8   
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*   This is good.  I have no problems with this as Black.]

34...Bd5 35.Rd1 Rc7 36.Ke1 d3 37.cxd3 c3 38.bxc3 Rxc3 39.a4

[39.Ra1 Rec8 40.Kf2 b5 41.Ke3 Rd8 42.g4 fxg4 43.Bxg4 Bc4 44.Bf5 Bxd3 45.Be6+ Kf8 46.Rh8+ Ke7 47.Rxd8 Bg6+ 48.Kd4 Rd3+ 49.Kc5 Rxd8 50.f5 Bf7 51.Bxf7 Kxf7 52.e6+ Kf6 53.Re1 Re8 54.Kc6 a5 
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*   Black's queenside is serious so White has to take care of it but in the meantime Black will pick up the center pawns.]

39...Rec8 40.g4

[40.Rh5 g6 41.Rg5 Kf7 42.g4 fxg4 43.Bxg4 Rd8 44.f5 gxf5 45.Bxf5 Rc2 46.Rd2 Rc1+ 47.Ke2 Bc6 48.d4 Ra1 49.Rh5 Rg8 50.Rh2 Rg5 51.Bc2 Bd5 52.Ke3 Rg3+   
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*     Black has White tied down.]

40...fxg4 41.Bxg4 Rf8 42.Rh4 Ra3 43.Kd2 Rxa4 44.Ke3 g5 45.fxg5 b5 46.Rd2 Re8 47.d4 Ra3+ 48.Rd3 b4 49.Rh6 a5 50.Rg6+ Kf8 51.Rf6+ [51.Ra6 Rb8 52.Bf5 (52.Rh6 a4) 52...a4]

51...Kg7 52.Ra6 Rf8 -- Black's race is strong to give White a run for his money.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #101 - 03/01/14 at 23:08:33
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 03/01/14 at 22:57:44:
Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."

It looks like you threw out your plan out the window.

I will take a look at this new idea and the new line you provided.

I will post.


I looked at my first intention and I think Black can hold there. As I also said the fxe5 plan needs serious investigation also, and White has numerous promising plans.

I've picked one, so no back tracking here sonny.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #100 - 03/01/14 at 22:57:44
Post Tools
Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."

It looks like you threw out your plan out the window.

I will take a look at this new idea and the new line you provided.

I will post.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #99 - 03/01/14 at 15:32:27
Post Tools
Rightio lads and lasses, the latest installment of the ongoing debate about a middlegame/endgame which may or may not have some relevance to theory....

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8 21.Kf1 Qxg5 22.hxg5 Re7 23.f4 Rfe8 24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Ne5 Ng4

This is our position, now I propose a new move:

29.Ke2!? Nxe5 30.fxe5 c5 31.c3 c4 32.Bc2 g6 33.Rh1 Rh7 34.Kf3 Rxh1 35.Rxh1 Re6 36.Kf4
This is the point, with a king on g5 White plays Rb1,b3 and it turns out the endgame is extremely problematic for Black. I'll give an example how White can win. 36...Rb6 37.Rb1 Kg7 38.Kg5 Be6 39.a4 a5 40.b3! cxb3 41.Rxb3 Rxb3 42.Bxb3

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


Might look like Black is holding, but no. I think this one is lost. 42...Bf7 43.Bd1 Be6 44.Be2 Bd7 45.c4 dxc4 46.Bxc4 Bxa4 47.d5 White wins.

Obviously all not forced but over to you to improve etc. show me how Black has active play etc.

I await with eagerness.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #98 - 03/01/14 at 07:16:55
Post Tools
Quite right Bladez. I'll provide the moves later if you so wish.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #97 - 03/01/14 at 03:27:17
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/28/14 at 22:46:57:
Bladez your line will not happen if you look at the plan I quoted earlier:

Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."


White should also investigate the fxe5 plan though, there are lots of continuations to look at.

Remember though we have gone down a very narrow path here the evaluation of which does not change the over-all evaluation of the ...c6 line as you seem to imply.

When this path is exhausted begins another, and then another, and so on, but ultimately it will be the OTB practical tests that are most important.

The Winawer exchange 4.exd5 is an important line that has been played by top Grandmasters for many years now. In particular Glek specialised and made it his main system against the French, scoring very well with it. It does have a dangerous sting, I've learnt that the hard way, so needs to be treated with a bit of respect.


Keano,

Your plan is just an intent expressed in words with no analysis.  It is a lot easier said than done. 
Remember we can do the same for Black.  Black may benefit from the h or g file being opened.  Black can walk his king to e6.  He can push for space and breaks on the queenside via ...c5 and prep it with ...b6 if he needs it.  The light squared bishop may move to a4 or h5 via e8.  BLack may seize more space by using his a pawn to a5 as well.   It also looks like in these types of positions it is Black who will be invading opponents's territory more than White.   The whole idea about white exchanging one rook may even help Black as well.

I do agree the evaluation for this line does not change, Black equalizes.  The position may be as edgy for White as for Black, both sides need to play energetically to make things happen.

Inferring or stating that White, in the opening, with just Ng3, will have the advantage as the outcome, that is not stagerring?   Let's be real.

No evaluation, no judgement of the position holds unless the analysis backs it up.

If I am willing to dig deep, real deep, it is because I am willing to put my hands to the fire that Black equalizes in the ...c6 line.  Or, like Eric said, Black is closer to equality than White is to an advantage.

If one makes a statement or adopts a posture that the exchange winawer should allow Black to equalize and get a good game, it does not mean we disrespect it.

I respect the Marshall gambit, but I am not going to ever say I disrespect the Ruy Lopez because the Marshall is just a big wall for White and White has nothing there for Black to doubt he will have a good game.

This is all important for theory.  These are all maps of ideas and terrain and features.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #96 - 02/28/14 at 22:46:57
Post Tools
Bladez your line will not happen if you look at the plan I quoted earlier:

Quote:
" I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising."


White should also investigate the fxe5 plan though, there are lots of continuations to look at.

Remember though we have gone down a very narrow path here the evaluation of which does not change the over-all evaluation of the ...c6 line as you seem to imply.

When this path is exhausted begins another, and then another, and so on, but ultimately it will be the OTB practical tests that are most important.

The Winawer exchange 4.exd5 is an important line that has been played by top Grandmasters for many years now. In particular Glek specialised and made it his main system against the French, scoring very well with it. It does have a dangerous sting, I've learnt that the hard way, so needs to be treated with a bit of respect.
« Last Edit: 03/01/14 at 00:42:42 by Keano »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #95 - 02/28/14 at 21:37:40
Post Tools
The last line posted, my line, it is staggering  to think White wants to think he is better and with 55 winning chance.

According to the position, after ...h6, after what was posted, White has to tread carefully and black gets a very active game.

White should, IMO, steer clear of 4.exd5 in the Winawer if he wants to play for a win with the highest of chances.  Life for Black in 4.exd5 is good even in the ...c6 line.

Unless you have something which contradicts my latest line,  and I feel confident now that Black is good, I will render your posture as pure wishful thinking.

With all due respect...
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #94 - 02/28/14 at 19:44:13
Post Tools
Bladez, I would like to think I am being objective. I would like nothing better myself for this ...c6 line to be a good option for Black. I even remember when Ivanchuk played ...c6 in the olympiad and won a nice game as Black I looked enthusiastically because previously this was a problem line for me. Unfortunately the more I looked the more I found Ivanchuk's opponent had not played the strongest moves, and I got an uneasy feeling about it and ultimately rejected it.

Also read Erics comments and mine again. He says 55% and I say 55-60%  I never claimed 66% that is vastly too high.

Eric - agreed, we have gone far, many will say too far. But its like analyzing in the club, pick a line and dig into it at least gives you a feel for it. Like I said, no doubt both sides have better moves earlier, but its one example of what might happen.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #93 - 02/28/14 at 19:26:48
Post Tools
Well I prefer looking at these late middlegame positions over the Exchange French opening positions, honestly.  If nothing else, the lines we've all dug up have shown how much play there is in simple, "boring" positions, and that's always good to be reminded of.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #92 - 02/28/14 at 19:25:29
Post Tools
@Keano

You are being way way optimistic here or you just don't want to budge at all.

If you look at the lines I posted, the very last one, and if you read Eric's comments then now your comment of White being better or being in the 66% chance to win is one which I would say "Staggering".   You are entitled to your own opinion.

No way this line is something I would look forward to as White now if I was playing for a win.   The ...h6 line is just the real deal breaker here.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #91 - 02/28/14 at 19:05:13
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 02/28/14 at 17:04:20:
I had a reply typed out but the forums going into maintenance mode lost it.  Anyway if "White has a lot more going for him than a bad bishop.  That's not what this position is about," then I really don't know what the position is about, I admit, because that's all I see going for White.  In your last diagram that's why White has winning chances, right?  Well that and the weakness on h7, which I want to get rid of with ...h6.

BladezII's line is very compliant; of course White will get excellent winning chances if he gets access to the dark squares, as I wrote before.  I suggest defending more naturally, using the temporary dynamic advantage of having the more active rooks and avoiding dark-square weaknesses.  There's a lot more to analyze, but something like this:



Regarding whether Black should want to play this way out of the opening, well, we're rather far afield and that wasn't my point.  I think you're vastly overrating White's winning chances, which in my opinion are very slight (maybe I'd expect a 55% or so score if played out hundreds of times at GM level) so long as Black doesn't go berserk and give White's king inroads.  That's my point.  Maybe you think the score would only be about 60% in which case we don't disagree very much.  But when I hear "two results" I think of 75%ish, and that's way too much in this position, IMO.

By the way I don't even think we're quite at an endgame yet, which is what my line with 6...g5!? was trying to show, though that could use checking with an engine (I haven't).  In principle though, Black is getting a ton of activity for a pawn.  After 7.Nxg5 Re3 8.Kg2 c5! 9.dxc5 Black's bishop is coming to c6 with a big attack--White can't just improve his position effortlessly, it's not an endgame yet.


Yes I saw this ...Ng4 move, it is a good move I think. But still in nearly all of the branches White is slightly better, although not much admittedly. I was intending to recapture dxe5 probably playing Rd2 before for what its worth, then I'll go Rh2, exchange one pair of rooks on the h-file, put my bishop on g2 and push c3,b4. Thats just one solid idea anyway, I had a look and it seems reasonably promising.

I think we are closer in agreement than you think. I would not put Whites winning chances anywhere near 75%. Somewhere between 55%-60% probably, which would be in the normal range for White.

The point I was more trying to make is that Black does not yet have complete "equality". OK, with good play he should draw it, but the same goes for any other opening! We have gone very deep here, and no doubt missed earlier good continuations for both sides, but its been worthwhile I think to demonstrate the nature of the whole line.

For this reason I much prefer the ...Nc6,...Bxc3+, ...0-0-0 plans for Black. Here I think Black gets more chances for dynamic play, and more chances to win the game. No doubt White has more chances to win also but thats the nature of chess!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #90 - 02/28/14 at 18:45:51
Post Tools
24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 !  (this is the correct idea)

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Rd2

[ A. 28.Kg2 Ng4 29.Rh1 Re2+ 30.Bxe2 Rxe2+ 31.Kg1 Rxc2 32.Rb1 Re2 This looks like it will be more difficult of an endgame for White than it will be for Black. Black will start to roll his g and f pawns up the board and at the same time hit both, White's g pawn and d-pawn.  White's game will be a bit too passive for my taste;

B. 28.Ne5 Ng4 29.Re1 Nxe5 30.fxe5 c5 31.c3 Kf7 32.Kg2 Rh8 33.Rh1 Ree8 34.Raf1 Ke7 35.Rxh8

(35.dxc5 Rxh1 36.Kxh1 Rh8+ 37.Kg2 Rh5 38.b4 Ke6)

35... Rxh8 36.Bxf5 Bxf5 37.Rxf5 cxd4 38.cxd4 Rc8 With a drawn rook endgame.]

28...Ng4 29.Ne5 g5 30.Re1 c5 31.Be2

[31.Ree2 c4; 31.c3 c4 32.Bc2 Rh7 33.Ree2 Nxe5 34.Rxe5 Rxe5 35.dxe5 Kf7 36.Rxd5 Bc6 37.Rd6 Rh1+ Perpetual check  or Black gains the initiative. For example - 38.Ke2 Rh2+ 39.Kd1 Rh1+ 40.Kd2 Rh2+ 41.Kc1 Rh1+ 42.Rd1 Rh5 43.Rg1 g4]

31...Nxe5 32.dxe5 d4 33.Bf3 gxf4 34.gxf4 Rh7

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

This position offers both, Black and White, trumps.  White may have a protected passed pawns, but Black has an advanced majority rolling down the queen side.  Black can easily deal with White's passed pawn, while Black's own pawns remain very mobile on the queenside.

In this line, Black enjoys good positions and very fun to play.  In some cases, in this line, it is White who has to play very carefully to not end up worse.  I would even say Black with this line has as much fun as White and in some cases more.  The principle is activity and playing energetically.

I can see the horizon now and I can stamp my name to the statement Black is doing good in the ...c6 line.
Yes, given this line, Black has a good game and very active game.  In fact, Black gives White good chances to go wrong at many points, just as White may think he gives Black chances to go wrong.  With the idea in this line of ...h6, White also has to step very carefully.

[EDIT : Eric, I apologize.  It seems we were working on the same idea with ...h6 -- and I had realized this was possible in the analysis I had and, unless I am mistaken, on one of my previous posts.  I do think this is the end of it now and I feel more confident than ever that Black is good here).
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #89 - 02/28/14 at 17:04:20
Post Tools
I had a reply typed out but the forums going into maintenance mode lost it.  Anyway if "White has a lot more going for him than a bad bishop.  That's not what this position is about," then I really don't know what the position is about, I admit, because that's all I see going for White.  In your last diagram that's why White has winning chances, right?  Well that and the weakness on h7, which I want to get rid of with ...h6.

BladezII's line is very compliant; of course White will get excellent winning chances if he gets access to the dark squares, as I wrote before.  I suggest defending more naturally, using the temporary dynamic advantage of having the more active rooks and avoiding dark-square weaknesses.  There's a lot more to analyze, but something like this:



Regarding whether Black should want to play this way out of the opening, well, we're rather far afield and that wasn't my point.  I think you're vastly overrating White's winning chances, which in my opinion are very slight (maybe I'd expect a 55% or so score if played out hundreds of times at GM level) so long as Black doesn't go berserk and give White's king inroads.  That's my point.  Maybe you think the score would only be about 60% in which case we don't disagree very much.  But when I hear "two results" I think of 75%ish, and that's way too much in this position, IMO.

By the way I don't even think we're quite at an endgame yet, which is what my line with 6...g5!? was trying to show, though that could use checking with an engine (I haven't).  In principle though, Black is getting a ton of activity for a pawn.  After 7.Nxg5 Re3 8.Kg2 c5! 9.dxc5 Black's bishop is coming to c6 with a big attack--White can't just improve his position effortlessly, it's not an endgame yet.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #88 - 02/28/14 at 16:34:24
Post Tools
See my previous post Eric, I think we posted around the same time...

For Bladez:
24.Red1 Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 Nd6 27.Ne5 Rc8 28.Kf2
(Just on general principle I prefer to put the king on the black square. It may not make a big difference.)
28...c5
(I presume this is still your plan - it is commital but it does free up some more breathing room for Black.)
29.dxc5 Rxc5 30.c3 Bb5 31.Bc2!?
(The most ambitious I think)
31...Nc4 32.Re1!? Nxe5
[32...Nxb2 needs calculating but on first sight the tactics seem to be working for white after  33.Rab1 Na4 (33...Nc4 34.Nd3) 34.Rxb5 Rxb5 35.Bxa4 Ra5 36.Bb3 Rc7 37.Rd1 Rxc3 38.Bxd5+ Kf8 39.Rd2 Raxa3 40.Re2! just an example, that whole line needs checking] 33.Rxe5 Rxe5 34.fxe5 g6 35.a4

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

This is the ending I am aiming for - Black has two weak pawns :d5 and h7, and White has ideas of Ke3-d4 etc.

Maybe instead of ...g6 better is ...Bd7, but eventually White can probably force the ..g6 move anyway, or bring the rook to the h-file via R-d1-d4-h4 tying the king to the h-pawn, when he also has g4 ideas.

We are getting very very deep, but lets step back a bit and think. Should Black be happy with these type of positions? In my opinion no, because he is slightly worse with no winning chances, on a good day he will draw it, on a bad one he will lose it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #87 - 02/28/14 at 12:13:48
Post Tools
By the way, without using an engine, one big idea I have for Black is the following:


This is why I said that avoiding the rook exchange was probably too sophisticated for White's own good, and here it's clear that Black is the one with the active pieces.

White might be a hair better in the initial position, but White needs a different idea. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #86 - 02/28/14 at 12:11:40
Post Tools
"just a draw" is a tad too simplistic in my humble opinion.

Maybe Black can indeed draw it, but not without a bit of suffering along the way. The good thing for White is that he is playing for 2 results.

After your 24...Nh8 White should go 25.Ng1 (that is the plan, ...Re3 can be answered Kf2)

24...Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 h6 27.gxh6 Nxh6 28.Ne5

White is in time to keep things under control.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

I'm claiming at least slight advantage here, with minimal risk. White can play on both sides, if you want we can analyse it more. White has a lot more going for him here than simply a bad bishop to play against. Thats not what the position is about.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #85 - 02/28/14 at 11:51:26
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/28/14 at 11:08:00:
"To win White will have to trade everything but that bishop and then penetrate with his king on the dark squares"

I don't agree - White has more active pieces, for me the plan will be to eventually penetrate with the rooks, although of course it all depends.

Looks like I have 2 lines to look at now  Wink


Well, eventually penetrating with the king on the dark squares is just how such endings are won--otherwise it's just a draw, despite the bad bishop.  There's some play in the position before a pure minor piece endgame, sure, but I don't see how White can activate the rooks without exchanging them, and in the line I gave (maybe White has a better first two moves, but they are the ones you suggested), 1...Nh8! 2.Kf2 Nf7 3.Ng1 h6!?, 4.gh Nxh6 is forced when the knight becomes very active, i.e. ...Ng4-e3 is a constant idea. 

White might have better chances if his pawn weren't on f4, but with Black's pawn position completely fluid he'll likely never set up a real blockade that will allow his king's access to f4, and then e5 or g5, or conversely squares on the queenside like d4, c5, etc. 

Here's one (of thousands) of examples:



White ends up winning these positions because of the weakness of the dark squares, though even in the above game Black's play could be improved and he has drawing chances (I remember it from a Dvoretsky book, but I don't have the book or analysis with me). 

It's odd to me that you say White has more active pieces when Black's rooks are doubled on the open file.  White's bishop is more active than Black's but that's all, and meanwhile Black's rooks keep White's pieces tied down to guarding the entry points (especially after Black's knight gets to h6).  Of course White can "solve" that problem by exchanging off all of the rooks, but then he's left with the minor piece endgame where I don't see how he can make progress.

Anyway that's my take, having failed to win dozens of such positions on the White side by thinking that I had chances with my better bishop.  You need a second weakness, and you really need it to be a way to penetrate with your king, otherwise White has nothing. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #84 - 02/28/14 at 11:08:00
Post Tools
"To win White will have to trade everything but that bishop and then penetrate with his king on the dark squares"

I don't agree - White has more active pieces, for me the plan will be to eventually penetrate with the rooks, although of course it all depends.

Looks like I have 2 lines to look at now  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #83 - 02/28/14 at 01:39:52
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/28/14 at 00:04:59:
And if I play the same plan as before to try and keep rooks:

24. Red1

My plan is Kf2,Ng1-f3 etc.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Doesn't seem like much fun for Black to me...


I don't have an engine (on someone's mobile), but 1...Nh8 2.Kf2 Nf7 3.Ng1 h6 looks eminently fine for Black to me.  Are you overvaluing Black's French bishop?  Black can bring the knight to d6 and play ...b6 and especially hit the g5-pawn.  If White takes, the knight can go via h6 to g4.  I think that avoiding the rook exchange is too sophisticated for White's own good.

The only thing wrong with Black's position is his bad bishop, which means he's potentially weak on the dark squares.  To win White will have to trade everything but that bishop and then penetrate with his king on the dark squares, but I don't see how that's going to happen.  If White tries to create a second weakness or open lines somewhere else (the queenside?), it's likely to activate Black's bishop or let him exchange it off. 

Edit: I see that I somehow missed BladezII's post, I'll look at his line later maybe.  But these kinds of positions don't pose Black many problems.  If his d5-pawn were isolated and White had access to d4 for his king that'd be different, etc. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #82 - 02/28/14 at 00:34:28
Post Tools
Then Black follows the same plan as in the lines I provided -  position the knight, then position the bishop, and eventually it looks like White faces nothing, but a handshake.

For example -

24...Nh8 25.Ng1 Nf7 26.Nf3 Nd6 27.Ne5 Rc8 28.Kg2 c5 29.dxc5 Rxc5 30.c3 g6 31.Re1 Bb5 32.Kf3 Kg7

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #81 - 02/28/14 at 00:04:59
Post Tools
And if I play the same plan as before to try and keep rooks:

24. Red1

My plan is Kf2,Ng1-f3 etc.

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Doesn't seem like much fun for Black to me...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #80 - 02/27/14 at 21:52:23
Post Tools
Thanks for the post.

I am glad you followed my line.  And it is now very clear that black equalizes here, unless I am missing something else here.

Let me explain what I mean.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8

21.Kf1 Qxg5   No one had mentioned this but this is the easiest.

22.hxg5 Re7

23.f4

[23.Rad1 Rfe8 24.Ng1 f4 25.Bxg6 hxg6 26.gxf4 Re4]

23...  Rfe8

24.Ng1

[24.Kf2 Nf8 25.Ng1 Rxe1 26.Rxe1 Rxe1 27.Kxe1 Kf7 28.Nf3 Ng6]

24    ...Rxe1+   25.Rxe1 Rxe1+ 26.Kxe1 Nh8 27.Nf3 Nf7 28.Kd2 Nd6 29.Ne5 Be8

[Black gets the bishop to the open diagonal and the knight is ready for Ne4.  Black is equal here.]


* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #79 - 02/27/14 at 10:21:55
Post Tools
Sorry Bladez I've been busy.

I'll follow one of your lines to show you what I'm at:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8 21.Kf1 Re7 22.Qxf6 Rxf6

I think this is where you stopped - I think if Black can swap all the rooks he should be OK, ideally I'd like to swap just one and play for a nice edge, here is an example how:

23.f4 Rfe6 24.Red1!
(White can afford to temporarily give the e-file to avoid mass exchanges)

24...Re3 25.Kf2 Nh8 26.Ng1 Nf7 27.Nf3 Nh6 28.Ne5 Ng4+ 29.Kg2 Nf6 30.Re1 Rxe1 31.Rxe1



And White is playing for the win with a stable edge and minimal risk. Obviously not all forced but you get the idea.

I have other preparation to do so if I don't get back immediately please be patient! You might have to wait a week or so, lots of things going on now.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #78 - 02/27/14 at 02:14:54
Post Tools
No answer to my proposed line yet...

Anyone else who has taken a look at this other line for Black which I posted above have any input or thoughts ?
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #77 - 02/22/14 at 21:13:17
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/22/14 at 20:51:18:
Sorry Bladez, I was perhaps too critical in my choice of language, I apologise.

What I meant is that I believe White may be able to get a slight edge in the ...c6 line, but of course the position is well playable for Black. Its a very solid line.

Also as I said I do intend to come back and continue the discussion, since I am playing chess this weekend preparing for my opponents is a little more urgent at the moment!
I just looked at your new idea, going ...f5 is interesting to grab a bit of space.

As I am trying to explain I object to the use of absolute language such as you used when you said Black had complete equality in all three lines. I do find that a staggering statement, but you are perfectly entitled to believe it, so sorry if I offended you.



Apologies accepted.  I hope we continue the ...c6 discussion.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #76 - 02/22/14 at 20:51:18
Post Tools
Sorry Bladez, I was perhaps too critical in my choice of language, I apologise.

What I meant is that I believe White may be able to get a slight edge in the ...c6 line, but of course the position is well playable for Black. Its a very solid line.

Also as I said I do intend to come back and continue the discussion, since I am playing chess this weekend preparing for my opponents is a little more urgent at the moment!
I just looked at your new idea, going ...f5 is interesting to grab a bit of space.

As I am trying to explain I object to the use of absolute language such as you used when you said Black had complete equality in all three lines. I do find that a staggering statement, but you are perfectly entitled to believe it, so sorry if I offended you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #75 - 02/22/14 at 19:28:16
Post Tools
Keano -  " It is perhaps a confusion in the use of language we are in disagreement over. "

Is this confusing to you ? -  "In any case the point is not really Watson, the point is anybody saying that every single line he covers (there are three!) against the Winawer exchange leads to complete equality and that they would put their hands in the fire to defend that. For anybody to say that about any opening book is staggering and frankly I'll admit it irritates me." (written to Smyslov_Fan )
That's plain language.  Nope, no confusion there about what you want to say.

Is this confusing to you ?  - "I just picked the first line I saw to demonstrate the case, and I believe its been a worthwhile exercise. " 

You "demonstrated the case"  and you believe it was a worthwhile exercise.

Yet but I come back and offer a much better line with its variations to "demonstrate the case" that Black, in the ...c6 just equalizes.   Yes, it was also a "worthwhile exercise".

Then you come back and say - "Bladez, I have no doubt these lines may all be well playable. "   So wait, you have no doubt these are all playable for black but you feel black just does not equalize in the ...c6 line ?   Believe me, if it ends up with White being clearly better, then to me, I don't want to play them as Black.   I play correspondence chess and there is no room in my repertoire for positions that are clearly better for White in any sense when I am Black.   If you mean playable as in White gets and edge but it's very tiny, then I understand that as playable for Black for my taste.   My claim, as is the claim of IM Watson is that in the exchange Winawer, Black equalizes in all those 3 lines.   I still put my hands to the fire on that assessment.

I just put my line in the ...c6 branch to demonstrate my point.


Also, is this use of the language confusing to you ?  -  " You are too quick to copy ideas from a book instead of investigating for yourself "

It is very clear you are being derrogative and with the inclination to throw a bit of an insult.  You don't know me, you don't know my history.  But you can say that I am quick to copy an idea from a book.  Oh, and you said that before we even exchanged concrete lines of analysis.

Then you say - " It is perhaps a confusion in the use of language we are in disagreement over. "

I am not sure if you mean "my (keno's)  use of the language"  when you say  we are in disagreement of the language.

But now you say "I dont think this ...c6 line is actually the most interesting for a theoretical discussion."  You say that after I posted my lines to support the claim that ...c6 for black equalizes.

I am not sure if it's clear who is the one having problems being very clear with the use of language.

I look forward to your answer to my ...c6 analysis.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #74 - 02/22/14 at 13:05:09
Post Tools
Bladez, I have no doubt these lines may all be well playable. I play the French myself. I dont think this ...c6 line is actually the most interesting for a theoretical discussion. From a Black point of view I would prefer to analyse the ...Nc6 and ...Bxc3+ line we were looking at earlier. As I stated before I think White may have chances for a theoretical edge there but I like the positions to play OTB for Black, and they are dynamic.

I have to actually play some chess this weekend, but I'll come back. We can finish off the evaluation of the ...c6 line and then move on to Black's more dynamic lines.

It is perhaps a confusion in the use of language we are in disagreement over. I view chess assessments in books very much as things which are constantly in motion and evolution, and not something static we can believe in and take for granted.

Anyway, perhaps we can forget these semantic differences and move on to analyse some positions  Smiley


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #73 - 02/21/14 at 23:23:31
Post Tools
I do admit, Black has problems, severe problems, in the line I gave above after Keano brought up the f4-f5 idea.  I will grant that.

I will also add that I am going back to an old line mentioned already.  I do think after taking a very good look, that Black stands fine here.  Take a look.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 Nd7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Bg5 f6 10.Bd2 [10.Bc1 f5 11.Nh5 Ng6 ]

10...f5 11.Nh5 [11.Re1 Bd6 12.Nh5 Ng6 13.g3 Nf6 14.Bg5 Be7 15.a3 Nxh5 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Qxh5 Ng6 18.Ne2 Qf6 19.h4 Bd7 20.Qg5 Rae8 21.Kf1 Re7 22.Qxf6 Rxf6]

11...Ng6 12.Qf3 Qb6 13.a3 [13.Qe3 Rf7]

13...Bd6 14.Ne2 Rf7 15.Rfe1 [15.a4 f4 (15...Ndf8 16.a5 Qc7) 16.Bxf4 Nxf4 17.Nhxf4 Nf6]

15...f4 16.Nhxf4 [16.Bxf4 Ndf8; 16.Nexf4 Qxb2 17.Rad1 Ndf8 18.c4 Qxd4]

16...Ndf8 17.Rad1 [17.Bxg6 Nxg6 18.Qc3 Bf5 19.Nxg6 (19.Nd3 Raf8) 19...Bxg6; 17.g3 Nxf4 18.gxf4 Bd7]

17...Qxb2 18.Bc1 [18.c4 dxc4 19.Bxc4 Be6 20.d5 cxd5; 18.Rb1 Qxa3]

18...Qb6 19.c4 dxc4 20.Bxc4 Be6 [Black is looking fine here.]

21.Qc3 Bxc4 22.Qxc4 Re8

If this holds true, then the ...c6 line is fine and, again, I would stand by the suggestion of ...c6 and the rest of the lines covered by Watson - my hands to the fire.

So, keano, I am very interested to see what you have for the above.  This is all great stuff.

Are there any discussions on 5...Nf6 for Black or White?  Does anyone claim White can get an advantage there?  I would also like to see White's best try.  Because that line has a long pedigree and a good test of time.  It is also covered by Watson.
« Last Edit: 02/22/14 at 00:50:13 by BladezII »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #72 - 02/21/14 at 22:02:23
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/21/14 at 18:31:26:
It's possible that Watson was wrong in this case without it being because he was too optimistic about Black's resources. Watson didn't say that Black draws this position, he said Black has attained equality.

If you found a way to prove an advantage for white here, congratulations. Practically, I like f4, but I don't see why Black is really worse off. Black has several resources available to him. As Eric said, the position is complicated.


Watson doesn't cover this line Smyslov_Fan.

He covers only 7.0-0 allowing 7...Bf5.

In any case the point is not really Watson, the point is anybody saying that every single line he covers (there are three!) against the Winawer exchange leads to complete equality and that they would put their hands in the fire to defend that. For anybody to say that about any opening book is staggering and frankly I'll admit it irritates me.

I just picked the first line I saw to demonstrate the case, and I believe its been a worthwhile exercise  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #71 - 02/21/14 at 18:31:26
Post Tools
It's possible that Watson was wrong in this case without it being because he was too optimistic about Black's resources. Watson didn't say that Black draws this position, he said Black has attained equality.

If you found a way to prove an advantage for white here, congratulations. Practically, I like f4, but I don't see why Black is really worse off. Black has several resources available to him. As Eric said, the position is complicated.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #70 - 02/21/14 at 11:25:23
Post Tools
In general you are right, but here there is a time factor - White is ahead in development so must push the initiative now before Black gets the chance to catch up (all in my opinion of course).

Otherwise what can White do? His only other plan is the Nf5 idea where Black will take it with the c8 Bishop. There White has exchanged time for the more long-term factor of the two Bishops.
Those positions might not be much for White but I think he can still aim for a niggle there, he can take the squares away from the Black Knights with b3,f3 etc. and the long battle commences.


After 10...Qc7 besides the immediate 11.f5 White also has the natural move 11.Nce2

Then I looked at a strange line:
11.Nce2 Nd7 12.f5 Nf6 13.Qf3 Nh4 14.Qf2 Ng4 15.Qe1

It looks at first sight like White has been kicked ragged all over the place, but actually his fun is just beginning and Black's activity is a mirage.

The best move for Black looks to be  15...Qe7
Then 16.f6! gxf6 17.Bf4 looks excellent for White.



Besides the obvious positional compensation he is coming with direct attack with Nh5.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #69 - 02/21/14 at 11:14:07
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/21/14 at 11:10:21:
It's not been analysed elsewhere because I believe the move 8...Bd6?! is inaccurate. 8...Ng6 is more precise (in my opinion). We can analyse the diagrammed position if you like, obviously White has to calculate some variations, but just look at the position.


Honestly I don't really want to analyze the position, but I did look at it.  Maybe we have a difference in chess thinking, but I thought that the f4-pawn and square looked a little weak and like White was a little over-extended if Black just plays calmly, and after 10...Qc7 11.f5 Nf4 I'm getting White's dangerous bishop, etc.  Maybe 12.Bxf4 is better for White, I dunno.  Then after 12...Bxf4 13.f6 White probably has something, so you're probably right.

I was mostly just curious whether you had analyzed this or whether it had been published somewhere.  And yeah, 8...Bd6?! does look like it's asking for it a bit, I'd think just 8...Nd7, but I don't know these positions at all.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #68 - 02/21/14 at 11:10:21
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 02/21/14 at 10:55:43:
Is 10.f4 really all that dangerous?  I'm not claiming full equality for Black here or anything, but it seems like there are a lot of complications you have to work through before giving any kind of verdict, and I don't necessarily think that Black is the one facing all the danger, i.e. 10...Qc7 11.f5 Nf4 12.Qg4 Nxd3 and we have to work out the consequences of 13.Nh5 f6 when the h2-pawn might be taken, etc.  Also the simple 14.cxd3 Rf7 doesn't look dangerous for Black to me.

The immediate 10...f5 doesn't look so bad, though I doubt it leads to full compensation.  Of course there's also 10...Qb6 immediately hitting the d4-pawn (I guess White will ignore it with 11.f5!), 10...Nd7 intending to swing to f6, etc.  Apologies if this has been analyzed somewhere before, I just don't think that "10.f4! with a dangerous initiative" is at all apparent without some further analysis, so I'm curious.


It's not been analysed elsewhere because I believe the move 8...Bd6?! is inaccurate. 8...Ng6 is more precise (in my opinion). We can analyse the diagrammed position if you like, obviously White has to calculate some variations, but just look at the position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #67 - 02/21/14 at 10:55:43
Post Tools
Is 10.f4 really all that dangerous?  I'm not claiming full equality for Black here or anything, but it seems like there are a lot of complications you have to work through before giving any kind of verdict, and I don't necessarily think that Black is the one facing all the danger, i.e. 10...Qc7 11.f5 Nf4 12.Qg4 Nxd3 and we have to work out the consequences of 13.Nh5 f6 when the h2-pawn might be taken, etc.  Also the simple 14.cxd3 Rf7 doesn't look dangerous for Black to me.  For instance 15.Re1 Nd7 16.Re8+ Nf8 leads nowhere, as the attempt to bring the other rook to e1 with a bind on the back rank is met with 17.Bd2 Bxf5!

It just doesn't seem to scary to me at all.

Then there are the dubious looking moves: the immediate 10...f5 doesn't look so bad, though I doubt it leads to full compensation.  Of course there's also 10...Qb6 immediately hitting the d4-pawn (I guess White will ignore it with 11.f5!), 10...Nd7 intending to swing to f6, etc.  Apologies if this has been analyzed somewhere before, I just don't think that "10.f4! with a dangerous initiative" is at all apparent without some further analysis, so I'm curious.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #66 - 02/21/14 at 09:51:31
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 02/21/14 at 06:24:48:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 0ñ0 8.0ñ0 Bd6 9.Qh5
[9.Bg5?! f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Nge2
a) 11.Qh5 Nd7 (11...Qb6 12.Nce2 Nd7) 12.Qh4 Nf6 (12...Qc7 13.Rae1 Nf6 With the idea of ...Bd7 with ...c5 soon to follow.) ;
b) 11.Bg5? h6 12.Bxe7 Qxe7;
c) 11.Qf3 f4 And I like Black all the way.;
d) 11.Nh5 f4;
11...Qc7 With ...Nd7 then ...Ng6 to follow.]
9...Ng6 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.Qxf5 Re8 12.Bd2 Nd7 13.Rfe1 Qc7 14.g3 Ngf8 [14...Nf6 15.Bg5 Be7 16.a3 h6 17.Be3 Nf8 18.Ne2 Ne6 19.h4]
15.Ne2 Nf6
[Black has a good game.  There are ideas of ...Ne6, or ...Ne4, also ...b5 or ...a5, or both.  White has two bishops but the light squared bishop is very limited in scope.  Black has the two knights and in positions as these, where scope is limited to bishops because of pawns being in the way or are controlling squares where the bishops  could land., then the knights do shine.
***  [15...g6 this line is also good to equalize, in my opinion. 16.Qf3 Ne6 17.h4 (17.Rad1 Qd8 18.c3 (18.c4 dxc4 19.Bxc4 Qf6 20.Qb3 Nb6) 18...a5) 17...Qd8 With ...Qf6 to follow. 18.c3 Qf6 19.Qxf6 Nxf6 20.Kg2 Ne4 21.Bxe4 dxe4 22.Rad1 Rad8 23.c4 f5 24.Be3 Be7 25.Rd2 Rd7 26.d5 Red8 27.Red1]



"For Watson to say that line for Black should equalize, it means, that Black should equalize"

Are you really serious? He gave a line saying ...Bf5 will equalize, so you think by some mystical zen magic he just "knows" that after 7.Ng3 Black can still equalize??

No. It doesn't work like that. Chess is not so simple.

In the line you just provided there 10.f4! keeping the development advantage seems much more to the point. White has an extremely dangerous initiative.



Do you really want to put your hands into the fire to defend that position?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #65 - 02/21/14 at 06:24:48
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/20/14 at 09:02:07:
BladezII wrote on 02/20/14 at 04:15:39:
7.Ng3 does not lead to an edge for White, not to me.  For IM Watson to say ...Bf5 should equalize, it means from a very very long experience in the positions resulting from these structures and from his inner knowledge of the resources.

When I have  strong reason to believe White has good chances to get an edge in any French line covered in PTF4, I certainly send these matters to IM Watson for him to see.

IM Watson covered a couple of these in this month's update, as a matter of fact, which I have sent him, but they are not the only ones. 

In this subject, the Winawer exchange, I have no reason to believe White has a clear path to an edge in any of the lines IM Watson recommends.


Now you are being silly - he cannot play ...Bf5 after 7.Ng3, thats the whole point!

You are too quick to copy ideas from a book instead of investigating for yourself, IMO of course. All opening books are essentially works in progress as theory is always evolving. The perfect opening book simply does not exist.

Your claim that White has no path to an edge in any of the lines Watson recommends in the Winawer exchange is simply staggering. I think even Watson himself would disagree with that.


You don't understand what I mean.  For Watson to say that line for Black should equalize, it means, that Black should equalize.  It does not mean that if black cannot play ...Bf5 then he cannot equalize.  I don't think you understand the spirit of what Watson is saying.

Also, you don't know me.  You sure do not know I am one who does his own investigation. 

You don't subscribe to Chesspublishing.com in the French section, do you ? 
If you were a subscriber, you will see I take on Watson's ideas in his book PTF4, for Black AND for White.

If you were a subscriber, you would see my games and my contributions get published here because, if I may humbly say, I do not follow blindly, but I do my own research and I do have my own practice.  Both, my practice and my research get posted to chess publishing.com since at least 10 years ago.  I have my stuff in one section or another since that far back.

If you were a subscriber, you would see Watson took on your line and gave it a good look.

Yes, after 4.exd5, I still don't think nor believe White has a path to an advantage.

my contribution

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7 7.Ng3 0ñ0 8.0ñ0 Bd6 9.Qh5

[9.Bg5?! f6 10.Bd2 f5 11.Nge2

a) 11.Qh5 Nd7 (11...Qb6 12.Nce2 Nd7) 12.Qh4 Nf6 (12...Qc7 13.Rae1 Nf6 With the idea of ...Bd7 with ...c5 soon to follow.) ;

b) 11.Bg5? h6 12.Bxe7 Qxe7;

c) 11.Qf3 f4 And I like Black all the way.;

d) 11.Nh5 f4;

11...Qc7 With ...Nd7 then ...Ng6 to follow.]

9...Ng6 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.Qxf5 Re8 12.Bd2 Nd7 13.Rfe1 Qc7 14.g3 Ngf8 [14...Nf6 15.Bg5 Be7 16.a3 h6 17.Be3 Nf8 18.Ne2 Ne6 19.h4]

15.Ne2 Nf6

[Black has a good game.  There are ideas of ...Ne6, or ...Ne4, also ...b5 or ...a5, or both.  White has two bishops but the light squared bishop is very limited in scope.  Black has the two knights and in positions as these, where scope is limited to bishops because of pawns being in the way or are controlling squares where the bishops  could land., then the knights do shine.

***  [15...g6 this line is also good to equalize, in my opinion. 16.Qf3 Ne6 17.h4 (17.Rad1 Qd8 18.c3 (18.c4 dxc4 19.Bxc4 Qf6 20.Qb3 Nb6) 18...a5) 17...Qd8 With ...Qf6 to follow. 18.c3 Qf6 19.Qxf6 Nxf6 20.Kg2 Ne4 21.Bxe4 dxe4 22.Rad1 Rad8 23.c4 f5 24.Be3 Be7 25.Rd2 Rd7 26.d5 Red8 27.Red1]
« Last Edit: 02/21/14 at 07:57:28 by BladezII »  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #64 - 02/20/14 at 09:02:07
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 02/20/14 at 04:15:39:
7.Ng3 does not lead to an edge for White, not to me.  For IM Watson to say ...Bf5 should equalize, it means from a very very long experience in the positions resulting from these structures and from his inner knowledge of the resources.

When I have  strong reason to believe White has good chances to get an edge in any French line covered in PTF4, I certainly send these matters to IM Watson for him to see.

IM Watson covered a couple of these in this month's update, as a matter of fact, which I have sent him, but they are not the only ones. 

In this subject, the Winawer exchange, I have no reason to believe White has a clear path to an edge in any of the lines IM Watson recommends.


Now you are being silly - he cannot play ...Bf5 after 7.Ng3, thats the whole point!

You are too quick to copy ideas from a book instead of investigating for yourself, IMO of course. All opening books are essentially works in progress as theory is always evolving. The perfect opening book simply does not exist.

Your claim that White has no path to an edge in any of the lines Watson recommends in the Winawer exchange is simply staggering. I think even Watson himself would disagree with that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #63 - 02/20/14 at 04:15:39
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/16/14 at 14:51:04:
Well lets just give a simple example:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7

Only 6 moves in and Watson says "and ...Bf5 should equalize", quoting an old game Oll-Short where White continued 7.0-0

Of course 7.Ng3 is much more logical and critical, and can lead to a niggly edge for White IMO. Check the 2013 game by young Spanish talent Salgado Lopez against Richard Rapport.

Also 7.Ng3 is not a new move, it had been played years ago by the main advocate of this whole system, GM Glek.

This is kind of typical for Watson's over-enthusiasm in general for the Black side.




7.Ng3 does not lead to an edge for White, not to me.  For IM Watson to say ...Bf5 should equalize, it means from a very very long experience in the positions resulting from these structures and from his inner knowledge of the resources.

When I have  strong reason to believe White has good chances to get an edge in any French line covered in PTF4, I certainly send these matters to IM Watson for him to see.

IM Watson covered a couple of these in this month's update, as a matter of fact, which I have sent him, but they are not the only ones. 

In this subject, the Winawer exchange, I have no reason to believe White has a clear path to an edge in any of the lines IM Watson recommends.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #62 - 02/19/14 at 16:05:22
Post Tools
He does indeed, good stuff! I learnt the French from Play the French Vol 1, which was the French players bible at the time.

I still do think he can be a bit optimistic, but generally this springs from enthusiasm to demonstrate Blacks ideas and how they can work against inept play by White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #61 - 02/19/14 at 12:59:56
Post Tools
GMTonyKosten wrote on 02/19/14 at 10:39:35:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/19/14 at 00:46:41:
proustiskeen wrote on 02/18/14 at 15:32:19:
Guess Watson pays attention to the forum!


I don't know what this refers to.


JW quotes analysis from the Forum on this month's French update.


Well, now you know who's a subscriber and who's not Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 3117
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #60 - 02/19/14 at 10:39:35
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/19/14 at 00:46:41:
proustiskeen wrote on 02/18/14 at 15:32:19:
Guess Watson pays attention to the forum!


I don't know what this refers to.


JW quotes analysis from the Forum on this month's French update.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #59 - 02/19/14 at 00:46:41
Post Tools
proustiskeen wrote on 02/18/14 at 15:32:19:
Guess Watson pays attention to the forum!


I don't know what this refers to.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
proustiskeen
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


Hello from Omaha!

Posts: 669
Joined: 08/11/08
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #58 - 02/18/14 at 15:32:19
Post Tools
Guess Watson pays attention to the forum!
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #57 - 02/16/14 at 16:14:06
Post Tools
Quote:
Also 7.Ng3 is not a new move, it had been played years ago by the main advocate of this whole system, GM Glek.

This is kind of typical for Watson's over-enthusiasm in general for the Black side.



This is typical for every opening book i have seen. Playing in corr chess here is the bottom line regarding "improvements" and "novelties" (out of 12 games - different openings and books):

- position worser: 2
- with white only equal game: 3
- better postion: 1
- variation not covered: 2

The only game were i am heading now in much better endgame was the game where i analyzed the whole variation very carefully and found an effective setup. That was bad luck for my opponent because he played to quick and prefered to play soon outside the main line so that i had all time to analyze carefully (with the result that i ignored the GM adivce).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #56 - 02/16/14 at 14:51:04
Post Tools
Well lets just give a simple example:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 c6 6.Nge2 Ne7

Only 6 moves in and Watson says "and ...Bf5 should equalize", quoting an old game Oll-Short where White continued 7.0-0

Of course 7.Ng3 is much more logical and critical, and can lead to a niggly edge for White IMO. Check the 2013 game by young Spanish talent Salgado Lopez against Richard Rapport.

Also 7.Ng3 is not a new move, it had been played years ago by the main advocate of this whole system, GM Glek.

This is kind of typical for Watson's over-enthusiasm in general for the Black side.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #55 - 02/16/14 at 01:24:47
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/14/14 at 20:18:08:
BladezII wrote on 02/13/14 at 22:39:38:
I do own Play the French 4, which is his latest work, a super book, and I have read, analyzed, reanalyzed the book over and over and I am still doing it.  I have not completed everything in it.

In the exchange and in the Winawer exchange, Watson holds nothing back and there is a lot of stuff and a lot of options.

I have used his recommendations in correspondence play and I agree with him, and I would put my hands to the fire for his content on those two areas of the French.


What line of Watsons did you pick in the exchange Winawer?


I picked and I have played all of the lines Watson gives for Black in that line.  I feel Black is fine in all of them.  I certainly do not like playing these lines as White because White's task is awfully hard in these lines compared to the main line winawer.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #54 - 02/14/14 at 20:18:08
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 02/13/14 at 22:39:38:
I do own Play the French 4, which is his latest work, a super book, and I have read, analyzed, reanalyzed the book over and over and I am still doing it.  I have not completed everything in it.

In the exchange and in the Winawer exchange, Watson holds nothing back and there is a lot of stuff and a lot of options.

I have used his recommendations in correspondence play and I agree with him, and I would put my hands to the fire for his content on those two areas of the French.


What line of Watsons did you pick in the exchange Winawer?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #53 - 02/13/14 at 22:39:38
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 02/13/14 at 15:55:14:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/13/14 at 15:29:51:
Did you have something specific in mind where Watson was overly optimistic in one of those two variations?


I don't have my copies of his book around, but I seem to remember one edition (the 2nd? 3rd?) where just about every line ended up "equals over plus."  Even 4.c4 Bb4+ and 4.Bd3 c5, which would obviously transpose to each other should White play 5.Bb5+ Tongue

I'm not saying that his analysis is bad, but I agree that he's a bit overly optimistic for the Black side. 



I do own Play the French 4, which is his latest work, a super book, and I have read, analyzed, reanalyzed the book over and over and I am still doing it.  I have not completed everything in it.

In the exchange and in the Winawer exchange, Watson holds nothing back and there is a lot of stuff and a lot of options.

I have used his recommendations in correspondence play and I agree with him, and I would put my hands to the fire for his content on those two areas of the French.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #52 - 02/13/14 at 17:39:46
Post Tools
GabrielGale wrote on 02/13/14 at 02:11:47:
Check out IM Greet's blogpost on QC's blog on "Beating the Exchange French"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=2530

sorry, dfan just beat me to it!

I prefer for Black: 8...Re8 9.oo Qb6 10.Qc2 Bg4 11.Na3 Nbd7 12.Rfe1 Re4 13.h3 Bh5 14.Ng5 Rxe2 15.Rxe2 Bxe2 16.Qxe2 Re8 17.Qb5 Qxb5 18.Nxb5 a6 19.Na3 h6 20.Nf3 Re2 Westerinen-Psakhis,Andorre 2000
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #51 - 02/13/14 at 16:21:14
Post Tools
Nothing specific, just remember I found his analysis in general very optimistic for Black and underestimating Whites chances.

The 2 Berg volumes are excellent btw, very objective.

Just checking what he thinks about this Winawer exchange line and interestingly he also likes this ...0-0-0 plan for Black, but if Rb1 and ...b6 are flicked in earlier he thinks kingside castling may be safer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #50 - 02/13/14 at 15:55:14
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/13/14 at 15:29:51:
Did you have something specific in mind where Watson was overly optimistic in one of those two variations?


I don't have my copies of his book around, but I seem to remember one edition (the 2nd? 3rd?) where just about every line ended up "equals over plus."  Even 4.c4 Bb4+ and 4.Bd3 c5, which would obviously transpose to each other should White play 5.Bb5+ Tongue

I'm not saying that his analysis is bad, but I agree that he's a bit overly optimistic for the Black side. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #49 - 02/13/14 at 15:29:51
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/13/14 at 08:57:20:
Can be a bit optimistic at times for Black Watson mind, IMO.

While that's certainly true, especially in his discussions of the Winawer main lines, I didn't see that flaw in his analysis of the Exchange. I didn't look too closely at his analysis of the Exchange in the Winawer lines though.

Did you have something specific in mind where Watson was overly optimistic in one of those two variations?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #48 - 02/13/14 at 08:57:20
Post Tools
Can be a bit optimistic at times for Black Watson mind, IMO.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #47 - 02/13/14 at 05:03:09
Post Tools
I read and study and analyze and review and reanalyze "Play the French 4" by IM John Watson.  He is THE BEST author on the French defense, and he is, arguably, the best opening book writer, a living legend among chess writers.

He covers the 4th and 5th move deviations by White against the Winawer, including the 4.exd5 and he does a great job at it.
He also covers the exchange variation.

His work is a masterpiece.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GabrielGale
Senior Member
****
Offline


Who was Thursday?

Posts: 471
Location: Sydney
Joined: 02/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #46 - 02/13/14 at 02:11:47
Post Tools
Check out IM Greet's blogpost on QC's blog on "Beating the Exchange French"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=2530

sorry, dfan just beat me to it!
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dfan
God Member
*****
Offline


"When you see a bad move,
look for a better one"

Posts: 749
Location: Boston
Joined: 10/04/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #45 - 02/13/14 at 01:36:25
Post Tools
Andrew Greet has just made a post with the title Beating the Exchange French over on the Quality Chess blog that may be of interest.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10620
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #44 - 02/12/14 at 21:51:34
Post Tools
Thanks guys, that was very helpful. I tend to agree with this:

Keano wrote on 02/11/14 at 20:54:50:
I accept this whole plan with ...Bxc3 and 0-0-0 may not be theoretically best, but for me it leads to nice natural play and OTB this is more important for me.

It is attractive that Black's play is similar to 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 and castling queenside.
Practice seems to confirm this. Except for Timman losing as Black and winning as White the second player scores well, albeit in not too many games.

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nge7 8.Qf3 Be6 9.Ne2 Qd7 10.Ng3 O-O-O 11.O-O and now h5 is interesting. Some sample lines which I absolutely haven't scrutinized:
a) 12.h3 h4 13.Nh5 Bf5 14.Nxg7 Bxh3 15.gxh3 Rdg8 16.Qxf7 Nd8 seems to end with a perpetual;
b) 12.h4 f6 13.Rd1 Rdf8 14.Qe2 Bg4 15.f3 Bf5 or 14.Re1 Bg4 15.Qe3 g5 (perhaps Rfg8 first) 16.hxg5 h4.

After 11.h3 Black might sac a pawn with f6 12.O-O h5 or try Rdf8 12.O-O f5 13.Nh5 f4 14.Re1 g5 15.Ng7 Bf5 16.Nxf5 Nxf5.

While I agree with IM Cox that it's silly to whine how boring the Exchange is it remains a valid question how to unbore the variation. It might be a trivial question for titled players, but not for amateurs like me.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #43 - 02/12/14 at 20:43:40
Post Tools
I think a lot of GM's might take White, but for a French player I have what I want, a complex double-edged position where I have some idea what I'm doing. The best player might win!!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #42 - 02/12/14 at 18:50:02
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/12/14 at 16:48:30:
TalJechin wrote on 02/12/14 at 16:24:27:
Doesn't that weaken the dark squares? My first thought was something with Bg5, either 12.Bg5 though 12...f6 might be playable. or simply 12.0-0 (or perhaps 12.a4) and if 12...Nf5 13.Bg5


Is that much of big deal? Eventually we'll want to push those pawns anyhow.
eg. ...Rde8 and if 14.Bf6 Rhg8 - I want to push with ...h5 and ...g5 eventually.


Well, in the long term it could be a very big deal... In the short term the engines seem to agree on a +0.30 for White, which could even be a good sign for Black as some of them start out much higher.

I'm not even sure if 11.h3 is necessary, as ...Bg4 may just kick the Q where she wants to go anyway, and without h3 Black's pawn storm may lack something to latch on to.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #41 - 02/12/14 at 16:48:30
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 02/12/14 at 16:24:27:
Doesn't that weaken the dark squares? My first thought was something with Bg5, either 12.Bg5 though 12...f6 might be playable. or simply 12.0-0 (or perhaps 12.a4) and if 12...Nf5 13.Bg5


Is that much of big deal? Eventually we'll want to push those pawns anyhow.
eg. ...Rde8 and if 14.Bf6 Rhg8 - I want to push with ...h5 and ...g5 eventually.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #40 - 02/12/14 at 16:24:27
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/12/14 at 15:16:43:
What if I play the same type plan:

10.Ng3 0-0-0 11.h3 g6 12.0-0 Nf5

Giving me doubled f-pawns I'd love because I get the c4 square, and otherwise I can stay put or exchange or later even consider ...Nd6, ...Na5 -c4


Doesn't that weaken the dark squares? My first thought was something with Bg5, either 12.Bg5 though 12...f6 might be playable. or simply 12.0-0 (or perhaps 12.a4) and if 12...Nf5 13.Bg5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #39 - 02/12/14 at 15:16:43
Post Tools
What if I play the same type plan:

10.Ng3 0-0-0 11.h3 g6 12.0-0 Nf5

Giving me doubled f-pawns I'd love because I get the c4 square, and otherwise I can stay put or exchange or later even consider ...Nd6, ...Na5 -c4





  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #38 - 02/12/14 at 11:15:15
Post Tools
I wonder how relevant Short-Timman, 1990 really is... White can of course play it differently in many ways, as in games between humans concentration and tactical alertness will be most important. Still, imo the simple plan of not allowing ...Bf5 is a good place to start for White (see my initial post for another example). Then White has a slightly larger margin of error, but any errors tend to be howlers anyway...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #37 - 02/12/14 at 10:31:40
Post Tools
That move-order is a bit strange.
Normally they go 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Nf4 Bf5
Its not that big a deal but in the Qf3 line maybe Black should just go 10.Nf4 Bf5 - I can't see anything better for White than a transposition.

In the other line with the Queen on h5 Black has to allow Nxe6 iirc, but he hits the Queen with ...g6 then and plays ..Nf5 and is fine e.g:

8.Qh5 Be6 9.Rb1 b6 10.Nf3 Qd7 11.Ng5 0-0-0 12.Nxe6 Qxe6+ 13.Be3 g6 14.Qf3 Nf5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10620
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #36 - 02/11/14 at 23:08:08
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 02/10/14 at 19:18:24:
12...g5 13.Ne2 g4 followed by ...h5 etc,

Its just me but I really like playing these positions for Black, quite possibly I am not being objective based on past results but I just like it.

As I like your 13...g4 - it's an improvement on Short-Timman, Tilburg 1990 - I take the liberty to ask: have you similar recommendations against 11.Nxe6 and against 8.Qh5 as well?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #35 - 02/11/14 at 20:54:50
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 02/11/14 at 16:01:57:
I think that 6...Bxc3 is more of a winning attempt/unbalancing attempt than necessarily the best move in that position.  On the other hand, the move that scores best in my database is 6...Bxa3, so if you really want a winning attempt... 

And Keano, if you prefer Black in those positions, I suspect that you value static things like pawn weaknesses a little more than dynamic things like the half open b-file leading to Black's king. 


Never had much of a problem with that b-file!

Needs to be kept an eye on mind.

I accept this whole plan with ...Bxc3 and 0-0-0 may not be theoretically best, but for me it leads to nice natural play and OTB this is more important for me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #34 - 02/11/14 at 17:17:52
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 02/11/14 at 16:01:57:
I think that 6...Bxc3 is more of a winning attempt/unbalancing attempt than necessarily the best move in that position.  On the other hand, the move that scores best in my database is 6...Bxa3, so if you really want a winning attempt... 



Maybe it's more a losing attempt then? - just like 6...Bxa3  Grin

Or just stereotyped thinking, "I usually take on c3 so...". How else would one defend giving away the bishop pair in an open position?

I've been looking at it for several days now, and by now I actually like both sides! Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2518
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #33 - 02/11/14 at 16:01:57
Post Tools
I think that 6...Bxc3 is more of a winning attempt/unbalancing attempt than necessarily the best move in that position.  On the other hand, the move that scores best in my database is 6...Bxa3, so if you really want a winning attempt... 

And Keano, if you prefer Black in those positions, I suspect that you value static things like pawn weaknesses a little more than dynamic things like the half open b-file leading to Black's king. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #32 - 02/10/14 at 19:18:24
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 02/10/14 at 09:53:13:
It seems to me that the Xchange can both be a specific weapon against players with a negative score against it, a la Kortchnoi-Vaganian (or van Haastert, see pgn below) or a specialised line for White since there are a lot of moves and plans to choose from for both sides, and theory may not be too reliable for Black since it's still a rare line between really strong players.

For one thing, is 6...Bxc3 really Black's best or does it just give White the long term advantage of bishop pair or bishop vs knight? Especially ...Bxc3 combined with ...0-0-0 seems to be quite demanding to play as black.
A quick check in the base "2004-2014" "both 2400", showed that Black scores better with both 6...Be7 and even 6...Ba5 than with 6...Bxc3.

Btw, I doubt it has anything to do with 1.d4 e6 2.e4 and Black not being a devoted French player. An overwhelming majority of the Xgames start 1.e4, and if it was just about not having the French as your main defence then GMs like van Haastert or Vaganian etcetera wouldn't be losing as Black...



12...g5 13.Ne2 g4 followed by ...h5 etc,

Its just me but I really like playing these positions for Black, quite possibly I am not being objective based on past results but I just like it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #31 - 02/10/14 at 09:53:13
Post Tools
It seems to me that the Xchange can both be a specific weapon against players with a negative score against it, a la Kortchnoi-Vaganian (or van Haastert, see pgn below) or a specialised line for White since there are a lot of moves and plans to choose from for both sides, and theory may not be too reliable for Black since it's still a rare line between really strong players.

For one thing, is 6...Bxc3 really Black's best or does it just give White the long term advantage of bishop pair or bishop vs knight? Especially ...Bxc3 combined with ...0-0-0 seems to be quite demanding to play as black.
A quick check in the base "2004-2014" "both 2400", showed that Black scores better with both 6...Be7 and even 6...Ba5 than with 6...Bxc3.

Btw, I doubt it has anything to do with 1.d4 e6 2.e4 and Black not being a devoted French player. An overwhelming majority of the Xgames start 1.e4, and if it was just about not having the French as your main defence then GMs like van Haastert or Vaganian etcetera wouldn't be losing as Black...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 93
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #30 - 02/10/14 at 00:54:40
Post Tools
I've said the same thing after my games.  It turns out the French transposition only happens to 1 . . . e6 against d4 player very rarely so they don't worry about it (not sure if the databases confirm this).  Incidentally, part of the idea in several of these games to play 1 . . . e6 in the first place was to get an asymmetrical game against a lower rated player (me) with the Dutch Stonewall or the English Defense to play for a win with Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #29 - 02/09/14 at 23:59:59
Post Tools
MaxJudd wrote on 02/09/14 at 23:25:54:
Where stronger players have a problem avoiding a draw as white against a lower rated player in the Exchange French is by transposition from d4 (where they were playing e6 for move order reasons, e.g., to avoid 2. Bg5 vs. the Dutch).  As the lower rated player, I have a fabulous record in this situation (both drawing where I have been out rated by 300 points several times and even picking up some wins where the higher rated player has over-reached).

The main reason is that not all players who play e6 against d4 play the French as their main defense against e4.  As such they don't seem as comfortable making the necessary unbalancing moves that John Cox and others suggest.  If they are strong enough, they seem to know that is the right approach but are scared to follow through. 

Instead, they try to simply outmaneuver without unbalancing moves by slowly making better move choices in a symmetrical set up.  This should work too (after all they are higher rated) but tends not to when the lower rated player is very familiar with the position (having played it many times from both sides) and the higher rated player has not.



They shouldn't be playing 1...e6 then!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #28 - 02/09/14 at 23:58:44
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 02/09/14 at 21:56:11:
For what it's worth, here's a GM-vs.-IM encounter from yesterday (Dutch league) I noticed which reminded me of this thread.




15...c6 looks wrong.

Also 13...Nh4 earlier well worth playing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 93
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #27 - 02/09/14 at 23:25:54
Post Tools
Where stronger players have a problem avoiding a draw as white against a lower rated player in the Exchange French is by transposition from d4 (where they were playing e6 for move order reasons, e.g., to avoid 2. Bg5 vs. the Dutch).  As the lower rated player, I have a fabulous record in this situation (both drawing where I have been out rated by 300 points several times and even picking up some wins where the higher rated player has over-reached).

The main reason is that not all players who play e6 against d4 play the French as their main defense against e4.  As such they don't seem as comfortable making the necessary unbalancing moves that John Cox and others suggest.  If they are strong enough, they seem to know that is the right approach but are scared to follow through. 

Instead, they try to simply outmaneuver without unbalancing moves by slowly making better move choices in a symmetrical set up.  This should work too (after all they are higher rated) but tends not to when the lower rated player is very familiar with the position (having played it many times from both sides) and the higher rated player has not.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4713
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #26 - 02/09/14 at 21:56:11
Post Tools
For what it's worth, here's a GM-vs.-IM encounter from yesterday (Dutch league) I noticed which reminded me of this thread.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #25 - 02/09/14 at 08:01:00
Post Tools
Quote:
Quote:
haven't got Berg's books yet, but noticed that he seemed to have relied on an interesting retreat 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nce7!? which looks sympathetic to me, Nb8 can be hard to activate so Nc6-e7 clears c6 for the pawn while covering f5 and Ng8 can go to its most active square... Does he mention this line in the book?

The only time he's played ...0-0-0 seems to be in that ...Nge7 line, and although he won, White looked better to me too.


Bergs choice is 6...Nge7 und he does not mention Nc6-e7.

I have Berg's book (French Defence - Volume one) and I confirm: no Nc6-Nce7 plan

I recorded only one time for not so many players
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #24 - 02/08/14 at 22:15:50
Post Tools
Quote:
haven't got Berg's books yet, but noticed that he seemed to have relied on an interesting retreat 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nce7!? which looks sympathetic to me, Nb8 can be hard to activate so Nc6-e7 clears c6 for the pawn while covering f5 and Ng8 can go to its most active square... Does he mention this line in the book?

The only time he's played ...0-0-0 seems to be in that ...Nge7 line, and although he won, White looked better to me too.


Bergs choice is 6...Nge7 und he does not mention Nc6-e7.

Quote:
But castling into a half open b-file may be one of those things Black needs to do sometimes to get counterchances. Any suggestions for rules of thumb under which circumstances ...0-0-0 is good and when it's too risky?


My two cents:

a) 0-0-0 could be a good option when Black can control the c4 square to prevent the pawn break c3-c4 and he has to hold the pawn d5 (which has no natural defender).

b) Berg runs in the following variation:



Generally Black plays here 15...Nxe3 but Berg shows that Black can face a problem here and recommends 15...Nd6. At the end he propose a slight improvement for Black: 19...Qf6 20.f3 Nd6 = with Na5-c4 coming next.

The problem is that White can play 16.Bg5!. Now after 16... Rde8 17.Rfe1 Black has to play 17...Ne4 and then White has can proceed with 18.Bxe4 dxe4 19.Qe2.

Of course, White gives up a valuable bishop but he gets compensation: he can now move his c- and d-pawns. I have analysed the position and noticed that White can place his queen on a6 or b5, Be3, Red1 and start an attack on the black king. He can use his a- , c- and/or d-Pawn to support the attack. It is important the black rook is not on d8 so d4-d5 can be a real threat. I do not think that the attack is deadly but Black has to defend the king and has no realistic counter chances. But he can have a much
easier life in the Winawer Exchange.

BTW 17...Qxe1 will end in a losing position for Black:



The game is not yet finished and we are some moves ahead so  i will not comment the endgame (White still has take to some hurdles) but is interesting that the engines realize that White has an advantage only late. When they see 17...Qxe1 they do not have 21.Qf6 on the map - for a long time. I saw the danger some days  to late (Christmas stress).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #23 - 02/07/14 at 13:00:44
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 02/07/14 at 11:31:51:
Probably depends on your tolerance for risk Smiley

The person I know who has played the exchange for a long time professes himself happy to see o-o-o from black.

I've sort of given up trying to do that and have found the positions getting reasonably unbalanced even after both players castle kingside.


Yes, that may be the simpler safer path. Though if Black already has the initiative in the centre or a pawn storm going on the k-side then ...0-0-0 may be the best follow up.

Perhaps also if the whitefielders are off, then ...0-0-0 would become more interesting. The game in my initial post should deter castling into it with the bishops on...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2017
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #22 - 02/07/14 at 11:31:51
Post Tools
Probably depends on your tolerance for risk Smiley

The person I know who has played the exchange for a long time professes himself happy to see o-o-o from black.

I've sort of given up trying to do that and have found the positions getting reasonably unbalanced even after both players castle kingside.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #21 - 02/07/14 at 10:26:29
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 02/06/14 at 23:45:09:
Yes, apologies Taljechin; had I read your thread more carefully I would have noticed that it was not on the usual topic but the related how-do-I-not-lose-to-the-Exchange topic, which is far more sensible (and one I have little to contribute to).

I'm not sure what your database research is supposed to suggest, but I assure you I've had plenty of games against the Exchange. I had it in the Lloyds Bank Masters I got my first IM norm in (1981, probably), the National Club final 1983 or so, against Dibyendu Barua in a weekender in about 1986, and in a local league and the Shropshire Open in the last couple of years, just off the top of my head. It doesn't surprise me to hear none of those games are in the databases.


No problem, it's easy to get stuck in a response pattern on the forum (I noticed that you had a similar entry at http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.se/2007/12/interesting-french-exchange.htm... some years ago).

In my database you have 37 French games, and even a nice win vs Fernandez at Lloyds Bank 1981. So, at least it's a funny coincidence that all your Exchange games have disappeared just when you mention them - Murphy's law perhaps?

I don't think I agree that the topic is "how-do-I-not-lose-to-the-Exchange", I'm more looking for a middleground between "no respect for the exchange due to it being misplayed by draw-seeking low rateds" which seem to be your position, and "the exchange is boring and drawish".

Imo the topic is "how to get reasonable counter chances when White is an equal or stronger opponent, i.e. not being forced to play for just the draw as black, while not taking too much of a risk either, as in 3/4...Qxd5 for example".

It would be interesting to see your solution to that, if you care to share a game or two? Btw, I just noticed that Kramnik has been using 3.exd5 (mainly blitz/rapid) since 1996, with a quite nice score, often choosing to delay Bd3 considerably.



Tullius wrote on 02/06/14 at 19:33:33:
Quote:
Regarding 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5, I don't think you can go too far wrong with Watson's recommendations (and he explicitly refers to both Vitugov and Simon Williams' book Attacking Chess: The French in places), as he offers choices between solid and sharp lines at key moments. In particular after 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3, Watson covers both 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 (which Vitugov regards as "asking for trouble") and 5...c6.


Vitugovs comment is spot on. In the variantion with a later 7...Nge7 8.Qh5 Be6 9.Rb1 b6 and later 0-0-0 Vitugov adds the black king can feel never safe. Berg underestimated it in his recent book. I followed Berg blindly (this is my fault of course) in a correspondence game and run with his recommendation quickly in trouble.

It seems to me that the best way for Black is 5...Nf6 (Moskalenko) or 5...c6.


I haven't got Berg's books yet, but noticed that he seemed to have relied on an interesting retreat 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Nce7!? which looks sympathetic to me, Nb8 can be hard to activate so Nc6-e7 clears c6 for the pawn while covering f5 and Ng8 can go to its most active square... Does he mention this line in the book?

The only time he's played ...0-0-0 seems to be in that ...Nge7 line, and although he won, White looked better to me too. But castling into a half open b-file may be one of those things Black needs to do sometimes to get counterchances. Any suggestions for rules of thumb under which circumstances ...0-0-0 is good and when it's too risky?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #20 - 02/06/14 at 23:45:09
Post Tools
Yes, apologies Taljechin; had I read your thread more carefully I would have noticed that it was not on the usual topic but the related how-do-I-not-lose-to-the-Exchange topic, which is far more sensible (and one I have little to contribute to).

I'm not sure what your database research is supposed to suggest, but I assure you I've had plenty of games against the Exchange. I had it in the Lloyds Bank Masters I got my first IM norm in (1981, probably), the National Club final 1983 or so, against Dibyendu Barua in a weekender in about 1986, and in a local league and the Shropshire Open in the last couple of years, just off the top of my head. It doesn't surprise me to hear none of those games are in the databases.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #19 - 02/06/14 at 23:03:37
Post Tools
My own experience is similar to John Cox' experience. Lower rated players use the Exchange variation and seem surprised that they don't get an easy draw. I think I have a 100% record as Black in the exchange against players rated about the same or lower than me. I have lost  games against significantly higher rated opponents in the Exchange. I think I have one, maybe two draws in serious games, and they were against players rated about 50-150 points higher than myself.

In my experience, the better player wins in the Exchange variation.

I do find it amusing that there's an ever more common notion that if there are no games in the database, those games never happened. In the US, very few games make it to the databases.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tullius
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 05/03/11
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #18 - 02/06/14 at 19:33:33
Post Tools
Quote:
Regarding 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.exd5, I don't think you can go too far wrong with Watson's recommendations (and he explicitly refers to both Vitugov and Simon Williams' book Attacking Chess: The French in places), as he offers choices between solid and sharp lines at key moments. In particular after 4.exd5 exd5 5.Bd3, Watson covers both 5...Nc6 6.a3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 (which Vitugov regards as "asking for trouble") and 5...c6.


Vitugovs comment is spot on. In the variantion with a later 7...Nge7 8.Qh5 Be6 9.Rb1 b6 and later 0-0-0 Vitugov adds the black king can feel never safe. Berg underestimated it in his recent book. I followed Berg blindly (this is my fault of course) in a correspondence game and run with his recommendation quickly in trouble.

It seems to me that the best way for Black is 5...Nf6 (Moskalenko) or 5...c6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Dealing with 4.exd5 and 3.exd5
Reply #17 - 02/06/14 at 18:16:24
Post Tools
King recommends 4. exd5, as in the Winawer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: