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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) E69 - Another game to understand the KID (Read 9329 times)
tony37
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #13 - 03/22/14 at 13:59:04
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/22/14 at 12:58:47:
The fianchetto variation just never seemed like a safe option against the KID to me.  White poses Black different problems than in the standard Classical lines, but the positions often devolve into a typical King's Indian dogfight.  I know that theory is pretty well-worked out now, but the old Gallagher line (and it's more modern refinements) strike me as extremely messy.

I'm playing a correspondence game with black now in the Panno line 6...Nc6 7. O-O a6 8. h3 Rb8 9.e4 b5 10.e5 Nd7 11.e6 and I can tell you that theory isn't worked out here at all, but I understand why: black is just better so white tends to avoid this line nowadays
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #12 - 03/22/14 at 12:58:47
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kylemeister wrote on 03/21/14 at 19:26:39:
Well surely it's typical in the Saemisch to avoid that Mar del Plata-style attack by such means as 0-0-0 or meeting ...f5 with ef.


Yes of course that's often true. 

The fianchetto variation just never seemed like a safe option against the KID to me.  White poses Black different problems than in the standard Classical lines, but the positions often devolve into a typical King's Indian dogfight.  I know that theory is pretty well-worked out now, but the old Gallagher line (and it's more modern refinements) strike me as extremely messy.  Same with the Yugoslav lines, etc.  I'd say that contrary to OrangeCounty's opinion, the positions can get very sharp precisely because White isn't playing to close the center.  I agree with Bibs' post above.

Safer options would be the Samisch, the Petrosian, the Classical with 10.g4, maybe the Smyslov system, etc. 

As an aside, I find it odd how many posts around here are devoted to finding a "solid" or "safe" line against X opening. 
  
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kylemeister
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #11 - 03/21/14 at 19:26:39
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Well surely it's typical in the Saemisch to avoid that Mar del Plata-style attack by such means as 0-0-0 or meeting ...f5 with ef.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #10 - 03/21/14 at 18:54:02
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Maybe I'm crazy, but I always think of the Samisch as a fairly safe line for White.  He overprotects e4 and g4 and Black's standard kingside pawn storm after d4-d5 with ...e5, ...f5, ...f4, ...g5, etc, is just too slow.  But maybe it just seems safer to me because I know it well. 

Lots of sharp lines in the Fianchetto I thought, though many are worked out very deeply these days.  White doesn't always have to play the Samisch for an h-file attack.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #9 - 03/20/14 at 19:31:15
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I think of the Fianchetto as a fairly safe line for White, by comparison to the adventures after 6.Be2 and 6.f3.  The reason for this is precisely the issue identified here: White isn't trying to close the center.  In the Fianchetto (unlike the 6.Be2 line), the move d4-d5 meaningfully reduces White's activity by closing off the pressure on the long diagonal.

Very often, White will then play Bf1 to get the bishop back into the game, which seems a little bit silly.  Closing the center may waste Black's ...Re8, but he can correct this in one tempo to ...Rf8 (if he even wants to go ....f7-f5 at all).  Of course, I play the Panno against g3 systems from White, so your mileage may vary in a system with ...c6 and a Knight on c5 (those systems always seemed dicey to me from a positional standpoint).



  
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #8 - 03/12/14 at 01:15:51
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JonathanB wrote on 03/11/14 at 22:24:53:
Is it?  I’ve got a massive plus score with it.  Only ever lost once iirc. And that was very much my fault and not the opening.


I would suggest a style issue. My results with white have never been marvellous. You may be able to win easily if you retain control, but there's a vulnerability as White to being blown away in the style of those old Bronstein and Tal games.


  
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JonathanB
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #7 - 03/11/14 at 22:24:53
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Bibs wrote on 03/09/14 at 12:12:12:
Rdc has it there.
Frankly, I think the fianchetto is a tricky opening for white at amateur level.


Is it?  I’ve got a massive plus score with it.  Only ever lost once iirc. And that was very much my fault and not the opening.

And I *very* much qualify as ‘amateur’ (assuming by that you mean ‘mediocre’).
  

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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #6 - 03/11/14 at 15:52:55
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> If you find his game against Krogius from the 1970-71 Hastings, the author of "Think like a Grandmaster" was unimpressed.

Errrr.....
  
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #5 - 03/10/14 at 23:39:48
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gewgaw wrote on 03/10/14 at 17:24:46:
I'm full aware, that I have to play with tension in the centre, but after Black's move ...Re8 I can't resist to play d4-d5, because Re8 seems to be on the wrong square, meanwhile my Re1 makes sense, due to the possible rook shift Re1-e2-c2.


This debate goes back 40 years. Raymond Keene advocated the idea for Black of playing Re7 (after d5). The idea was to follow up with Ne8, Nf8 and then f5. If you find his game against Krogius from the 1970-71 Hastings, the author of "Think like a Grandmaster" was unimpressed.

There was also a Cambridge College league game where White tried Re2 and then followed it up with f4.

Whilst manoeuvring in your own space  later became popular in the Hedgehog, the Kings Indian is more about initiative. If Black cannot find any, he is likely to be crushed by the spatial advantage.

One of the points defending these positions for Black is that tempi don't matter that much. So playing Re8 to provoke d5 and then returning the Rook to f8 is no great problem. Equally you can just wander the Knights around. It may well not be a problem if they return to where they started if it provokes some tactical weaknesses by White.
  
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gewgaw
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #4 - 03/10/14 at 17:24:46
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RdC wrote on 03/09/14 at 09:27:20:
gewgaw wrote on 02/07/14 at 22:17:27:
why 11.Be3 is the mainline and not 11.d5?


It's a piece of received wisdom that White should retain the central tension in order to provoke Black into exd4, whilst Black tries to provoke the centre closing d5. That's why in some lines the Queen goes to a5 or b6 instead of c7 to increase the tactical pressure on the White centre. Computer engines don't seem too bothered, thinking that White has a small advantage whatever is played.

It's probably personal taste as much as anything. Do you feel happier in positions where d5 has been played, or where .. exd4 is tried?

Very interesting comment.
I'm full aware, that I have to play with tension in the centre, but after Black's move ...Re8 I can't resist to play d4-d5, because Re8 seems to be on the wrong square, meanwhile my Re1 makes sense, due to the possible rook shift Re1-e2-c2.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but we can discuss it... Wink
  

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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #3 - 03/09/14 at 12:12:12
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Rdc has it there.
Frankly, I think the fianchetto is a tricky opening for white at amateur level. As black has activity waiting to happen, and white is trying to hold it all together, which is difficult.
You need to be hyper-alert positionally and tactically. There is always something Bronstein/Tal lurking there waiting to blow the position open (likely on d4,b2,f2).
  
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #2 - 03/09/14 at 09:27:20
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gewgaw wrote on 02/07/14 at 22:17:27:
why 11.Be3 is the mainline and not 11.d5?


It's a piece of received wisdom that White should retain the central tension in order to provoke Black into exd4, whilst Black tries to provoke the centre closing d5. That's why in some lines the Queen goes to a5 or b6 instead of c7 to increase the tactical pressure on the White centre. Computer engines don't seem too bothered, thinking that White has a small advantage whatever is played.

It's probably personal taste as much as anything. Do you feel happier in positions where d5 has been played, or where .. exd4 is tried?
  
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gewgaw
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Re: E69 - Another game to understand the KID
Reply #1 - 02/07/14 at 22:17:27
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Hm, it seems very difficult to give some advice. Is there really no one who can explain, why 11.Be3 is the mainline and not 11.d5?
  

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E69 - Another game to understand the KID
02/05/14 at 18:46:41
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1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 c6 3. c4 d6 4. g3 g6 5. Bg2 Bg7 6. O-O O-O 7. Nc3 Nbd7 8. h3
Qc7 9. e4 e5 10. Re1 Re8 11. d5 a5 12. Re2 Nc5 13. Ne1 cxd5 14. cxd5 b6 15. Rc2
Ba6 16. Rb1 Qe7 17. Be3 Nfd7 18. g4 Rf8 19. Qd2 Rac8 20. b3 f5 21. f3 Rf7 22.
a3 fxe4 23. fxe4 a4 24. Nxa4 Rcf8 25. Nxc5 Nxc5 26. b4 Rf1+ 27. Kh2 Nd3 28. Rd1
Nf4 29. Bxf1 Bxf1 30. Bxf4 Rxf4 31. Ng2 Rf3 32. Rc8+ Bf8 33. Qc1 Bxg2 34. Kxg2
Rf4 35. Rf1 g5 36. Rxf4 gxf4 37. Rc3 h5 38. gxh5 Qh7 39. Qe1 Qxh5 40. Kh2 Kf7
41. Qf2 Qd1 42. Qc2 Qe1 43. Kg2 b5 44. a4 bxa4 45. b5 Be7 46. b6 Bd8 47. b7 Bb6
48. h4 Qxh4 49. b8=Q Qg4+ 50. Kh2 Bg1+ 51. Kh1 Bc5 52. Rxc5 Qh3+ 53. Kg1 Qg3+
54. Kf1 Qf3+ 55. Ke1 Qe3+ 56. Qe2 Qg1+ 57. Kd2 Qd4+ 58. Kc2 Qxc5+ 59. Kb2 Qd4+
60. Ka2 1-0

Questions:
ad 1: 11.d5; the main move is 11.Be3, but I don't know why; I play Re1 to play Re1-e2-c2, the Re8 is not on the right square after 11.d5, so Black has to play Rf8 later and will waste two tempi; are my thoughts correct ?!
ad 2: 18. g4; what do you think about it? I want to close my kingside, but my opponent said, my move had weakend my kingside to his favour.
ad 3: 21.f3; as I mentioned, I wanna close my kingside, but what abut taking Xf5; is there a rule to thumb, when to take on Xf5 or to play f3?
  

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