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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line (Read 8534 times)
TopNotch
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #13 - 03/15/14 at 01:24:54
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MNb wrote on 03/14/14 at 02:46:12:
TopNotch wrote on 03/14/14 at 00:19:27:
I would not transpose to the main paths with 7.Be2, as it is much more difficult to prove any advantage there.

Do you have a (or more than one) particular variation in mind? Results after 7.Be2 e6 8.Nc3
a) 8...Bb4 9.O-O
b) 8...Qa5 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5
c) 8...Qd6 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5
d) 8...Qd7 9.Be3
e) 8...Qd8 9.h3
f) 8...Qh5

are pretty encouraging for White.


More problematic for White is the move-order:  1. e4 c5 2. c3  d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nf3  Nc6 5. d4  cxd4 6. cxd4 Bg4 7. Be2 and now 7…Nf6 instead of the more commonly played (7…e6), the idea is to reach the following position. 8. Nc3 Qa5 9. 0-0 (9. d5 is possible, but I think Black is just fine after 9…Rd8) e6 10. h3 Bh5 11. Be3 Bd6! An important finesse and much more challenging than the usual (11…Be7, which is quite promising for White after 12. Qb3 Qb4 13. g4 Bg6 14. Ne5! 0-0 15. g5 Qxb3 16. axb3 Nd5 17. Nxd5 exd5 18. Rfc1 intending Rfc8? 19. Bg4  with a clear advantage.) A similiar approach is not as effective against the text because Black has more control over the e5 square and in some cases, say an ending, the e7 square is a useful place to park the King. For e.g.  12. Qb3 Qb4 13. g4 Bg6 14.  Qxb4 Nxb4 15. Nb5 Ke7 16Nxd6 Kxd6 17. Ne5 Nfd5 with a fully satisfactory position for Black.

I don’t think the positions after 11…Bd6 offer White very much, so he should seek improvements earlier. However I have not found anything totally convincing for White as yet, although a few interesting alternatives do exists, but require more practical tests before a definitive verdict can be reached.      

I had a Déjà vu moment, and seem to recall that I either started or participated in a thread some years back, that discussed these very lines in quite some detail.

In any case, I think the Original Poster now has enough material to make an informed decision.

Regards,

Topper Smiley
« Last Edit: 03/15/14 at 13:12:49 by TopNotch »  

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MNb
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #12 - 03/14/14 at 02:46:12
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TopNotch wrote on 03/14/14 at 00:19:27:
I would not transpose to the main paths with 7.Be2, as it is much more difficult to prove any advantage there.

Do you have a (or more than one) particular variation in mind? Results after 7.Be2 e6 8.Nc3
a) 8...Bb4 9.O-O
b) 8...Qa5 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5
c) 8...Qd6 9.h3 Bh5 10.d5
d) 8...Qd7 9.Be3
e) 8...Qd8 9.h3
f) 8...Qh5

are pretty encouraging for White, suggesting that this

TopNotch wrote on 03/14/14 at 00:19:27:
White's position is still slightly better and more importantly much easier to play OTB.

applies to 7.Be2 as well.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #11 - 03/14/14 at 00:19:27
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GM Ron Henley gives : 1.  e4 c5 2.  c3 d5 3.  exd5 Qxd5 4.  Nf3 Nc6 5.  d4 cxd4 6.  cxd4 Bg4 7.  Nc3 Bxf3 8.  gxf3 Qxd4 9.  Qxd4 Nxd4 10.  Nb5 Nc2 11.  Kd1 Rc8 and now he thinks the simple and hardly tried 12.  Rb1 is best, with some advantage for White. I too prefer 12. Rb1, particularly for practical reasons, note that the obvious 12...a6 fails to 13.Bd2!, a trap I suspect will catch out quite a few opponents. Even if they avoid this pitfall, White's position is still slightly better and more importantly much easier to play OTB.

Objectively speaking, the line you give: 1.  e4 c5 2.  c3 d5 3.  exd5 Qxd5 4.  Nf3 Nc6 5.  d4 cxd4 6.  cxd4 Bg4 7.  Nc3 Bxf3 8.  gxf3 Qxd4 9.  Qxd4 Nxd4 10.  Nb5 Nc2 11.  Kd1 Rc8! 12.  Nxa7 Rc5 13.  b4!? Nxb4 14.  Rb1! Maybe theoretically stongest of all (Houdini seems to think so at least), but White needs to be play very accurately here to prove his advantage, and I think from a practical point of view this is the line Black would be more prepared to face.

Lastly, if Black goes for this line I would not transpose to the main paths with 7.Be2, as it is much more difficult to prove any advantage there.

Toppy Smiley   

  

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tipau
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #10 - 03/13/14 at 22:15:27
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Some analysis posted below on both 8.gxf3 and 8.Nxd5 lines.

Maybe there are some mistakes but generally I think White is looking good in both. Certainly I wouldn't want to touch Black's position, but then I think that about most 2...d5 lines anyway Smiley





  

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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #9 - 03/11/14 at 06:24:09
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tipau wrote on 03/11/14 at 00:06:10:
This leaves me with 11.f3 which I haven't reached a conclusion on yet...




White seemed to be better to me for the most part of the game. Maybe drawable, but certainly not the type of game I would like to have as Black.
  
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tipau
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #8 - 03/11/14 at 00:06:10
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This line with 15.Bc7+ and 16.Rc1! is very strong and seems to refute 12...Nc2+ completely!

I looked at 12...e5 and 12...Nf6 and I think White is better in both cases, although nothing close to +-. After 12...e5 13.dxe6 fxe6 14.Rc1 Nc6 15.Be2 Bb4+ 16.Kf1 Nf6 17.Nc7 e5 18.Rxc6! and White appears to get a good ending in all lines.

I'm having more troubles with 9...Kd8 10.Nxa8 Bh5, which takes the sting out of 11.d5 as there's no longer a check on b5. If 11.Bf4 then 11...e5! 12.dxe5 Bb4 13.Bd2 Bxd2 14.Kxd2 Nge7 happened in one game S.Larsen-Skytte, 1997 and is unclear as the knight on a8 drops.
This leaves me with 11.f3 which I haven't reached a conclusion on yet...

In the other line (after 8.gxf3) 13.b4 Nxb4 14.Rb1!? also looks worth investigating. I think I'll need a few days to look into all of the lines more deeply and will post again.
  

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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #7 - 03/10/14 at 18:15:49
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 03/10/14 at 17:56:37:
Yeh But Black might equalize with 12...e5 ! instead of Nc2 ? and my analysis goes 13 dxe6 + fxed 14.Rc1 making some room for the knight on a8 Nc6 15.Be2 and black equalizes with Nf6

It seems reasonable at first sight. Still, a more proper investigation is needed.  Wink
  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #6 - 03/10/14 at 17:56:37
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Yeh But Black might play  12...e5 ! instead of Nc2 ? and my analysis goes 13 dxe6 + fxed 14.Rc1 making some room for the knight on a8 Nc6 15.Be2 Bb4 + followed by Nf6 the evaltution is  equal to sligtly better for white...But I think 12... e5 is better than tempting Nc2

Nice analysis Vaas
  
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #5 - 03/10/14 at 13:57:24
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The line given by Vass starting with 15.Bc7+ seems to be almost flat out winnning for White. If you have a good engine turn it on, and judge for yourself. More often than not if you feed it a few moves it is usually easy to refute variations historically considered dubious.
  
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tipau
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #4 - 03/10/14 at 13:31:22
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Ah, yes 7.Be2 is possible, thanks for mentioning that. I do play that position sometimes with the 10.d5!? pawn sac in mind.

Still, I generally prefer the lines with dxc5 after Nc6 + Bg4 and I think White has great chances there. It would be a shame if Black could dodge it...

Thanks for lines Vass! I will investigate further when I have some time.
  

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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #3 - 03/10/14 at 12:08:21
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tipau wrote on 03/09/14 at 23:12:55:
I play the c3 Sicilian and almost never see the line 2...d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.d4 Nc6 5.Nf3 cxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4.


Taking the Queen on d5 is also possible, but equally leads to an obscure ending. White can avoid all this and get a normal game with 7. Be2 defending the d pawn tactically by the usual Bxc6 trick. It's then down to typical IQP play. So it's a White player option to get involved in this.
  
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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #2 - 03/10/14 at 11:59:33
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tipau wrote on 03/09/14 at 23:12:55:
It can practically be forced against 2.c3, so I'd be surprised if it's decent as no-one does it!

There is of course 7.Be2. As this is much simpler I used to play it via the Morra Gambit Declined.
  

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Re: c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
Reply #1 - 03/10/14 at 10:59:17
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Hi, tipau!
I don't have time to check right now, but your guess is right. If there are any chances for the first player to complicate things, these two moves have to be considered:

  
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tipau
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c3 Sicilian - quick cxd4 and Bg4 line
03/09/14 at 23:12:55
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I play the c3 Sicilian and almost never see the line 2...d5 3.exd5 Qxd5 4.d4 Nc6 5.Nf3 cxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4.

It tends to get marked as dubious in most of the literature and has never been covered by a game in the Anti's section, but it's not clear why to me...

7.Nc3 Bxf3 now after both

a) 8.gxf3 (usually recommended) 8...Qxd4 9.Qxd4 Nxd4 10.Nb5 Nc2+ 11.Kd1 Rc8! 12.Nxa7 Rc5 13.Be3 Nxe3 14.fxe3

and

b) 8.Nxd5 Bxd1 9.Nc7+ Kd7 10.Nxa8 Bh5! 11.d5 Nd4 12.Be3 Nc2+ 13.Kd2 Nxe3!

Black is fine (even preferable IMO by the end of the lines) in both lines. Maybe 13.b4!? in line a and 12.Bf4!? in line b are alternatives but they seem very messy and unclear.

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone's got thoughts on this line. It can practically be forced against 2.c3, so I'd be surprised if it's decent as no-one does it!
  

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