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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID (Read 12696 times)
slates
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #17 - 03/30/14 at 20:53:02
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@BPaulsen - thanks for your point about the diverse position types in the Nimzo.  I think Yermolinsky wrote something to that effect about the Nimzo in his Road to Chess Improvement book, although I no longer have my copy.
Coupled with the QID (I'm not keen on any other options vs 3.Nf3) there does seem to be a lot of ground to cover. The Grunfeld is certainly challenging for me to learn but I am enjoying it, so that's encouragement enough.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #16 - 03/30/14 at 18:04:49
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I think one should play an opening one i comfortable with so I would say Grunfeld in this case.

About Nimzo I would say that id depends on blacks preferece in most cases since most variations can be played in several styles (Queensgambit style , QID style, Bogo Indian style, Benoni style, Dutch style, independent style). Nimzo is often played as a solid variation but there are lots of sharp black gambit lines as well.

Also black does not have to play QID as partner to the Nimzo. Black has several other options.
* Play Bogo Indian = most economical but possibley not objective best.
* Transpose to Tango with Nc6. However it depends on black prefernce vs Qc2 Nimzo or Nf3 Nimzo. Also black is commited to Catalan accepted.
* Transpose to QGD/Catalan with d5. The Point is to ruling out exchange variation with Ne2 plan.
* Transpose to Blumenfeld gambit. However this line is often considered dubiois
* Transpose to Benoni. It rules out pawn to f4 line. Drawbacks of Benoni is that it would possible requare much work = impractical
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #15 - 03/29/14 at 18:25:27
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RdC wrote on 03/28/14 at 23:34:58:
slates wrote on 03/28/14 at 23:16:23:

I'm committing to the Grunfeld then. Still interested in the experiences of others who've debated which of these options to go for, though.


One very good point about the Grunfeld is that it can work very well against players who don't know a lot of theory, but just play solidly in Queen Pawn positions. So whilst a plan of playing d4, c4, e3, b3, Nf3, Nc3, Be2, Bb2 can work reasonably well against a Kings Indian, against the Grunfeld that's asking for trouble. You go c5, Nc6, Qa5, Ne4 maybe and you are blowing them away before they've escaped the opening. The problem against people who know what they are doing is that Black can just get smothered and have to defend difficult technical positions.

Here's a personal example from quite a long time ago.

At the time, the player of the White pieces was around 1600-1800 standard and Black around 2000.



Yeah, a fine/frightful example of White mucking about.   
Speaking of (attempted) solid play against the Gruenfeld, and of old stuff, I was reminded of Fischer stating that after 6. Be2 c5 ("!") it's hard for White to equalize.  Surely an odd claim -- for one thing, after 7. 0-0 ("?") cd he didn't mention 8. ed.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #14 - 03/29/14 at 14:33:56
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If the question is more purely workload, I think that the Grunfeld is less work, though to some extent it depends on which variations of each defense you choose.  Generally, theory in the Grunfeld is narrow and deep, while in the Nimzo/QID/Catalan complex it is extremely broad and covers many more types of positions.  You have to be able to play a much wider type of positions to play the Nimzo/QID/Catalan well than the Grunfeld, in my opinion, and often White is the one who gets to specialize in his approach.   

You will probably end up learning more about chess from the Nimzo/QID, if you actually make a serious effort to study the nuances of all of the types of positions you come across (IQP, Benoni-like, "light squared strategy," dark-squared blockade, Dutch-like, and on and on).  It's a monumental task, but that's why it's so instructive!

But my last post was meant to convey that these are radically different openings, so it shouldn't be too hard to choose between them, in my opinion.  

Lastly, I bet you'll find that you actually get Grunfeld positions more often than Nimzo ones in practice.  For myself, it was very discouraging to spend so long working on the Nimzo-Indian and then always see 3.Nf3 or 2.Nf3.  In my opinion, if you want to play the Nimzo you should love your defense to 3.Nf3 just as much as you love the Nimzo, because you're going to see it more often.  

And I agree with Bryan that the d-pawn specials are much easier after 2...g6 than 2...e6.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #13 - 03/29/14 at 10:15:23
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The NID/QID/Catalan complex requires a wide breadth of chess knowledge in terms of the types of positions you will be made to handle. There is very little consistency in the structures.

Take the NID, for example. Depending on the variation you are facing you may need to know how to capably play a Benoni structure (Leningrad, possibly 4.f3), doubled pawns (Saemisch, Kasparov), face hanging pawns (Rubenstein), IQPs (Rubenstein again), and so on and so forth. 

The QID is all over the map. You can end up with Hedgehog structures (4.g3 Ba6), Tartakower QGD-style play (Petrosian), accepting d5 gambits (4.g3 Ba6 5.Qc2), or even hacky attacks (4.e3).

The Catalan is, well, the Catalan. There's something for everyone in that. As far as I'm concerned it is the Ruy Lopez for 1.d4 d5.

All of them are worth learning, but you probably won't need to learn them because of the Grunfeld not being solid enough. The amount of long theoretical lines in that opening exist precisely because White cannot force a += all that easily. Learn them because you want more weapons and to enhance your understanding of the game.

And a side-note: d-pawn specials. They are more annoying when you don't fianchetto your king's bishop, in my experience.
  

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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #12 - 03/29/14 at 09:32:03
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@ErictheRed - I understand your point, I think; the question is, strictly speaking, intended to solicit opinions on which defence has the greater study workload.
It's not really about which defence is 'better', as I accept that to be a pointless debate, essentially, when discussing such mainstream openings.
Thanks for the summary points about each characteristic of play, these are all useful reminders, as my preference lately seems to be the Grunfeld but I also know that there are some facets of play there that are more difficult for a player like me than in the NID/QID.
I enjoy openings selection discussion greatly and welcome players' thoughts on these defences in all contexts, but I also realise that at my level openings aren't as important as other parts of the game.
I still like to dwell on them, though!
So my apologies if the question is puzzling, I admit that the selection process in these matters is puzzling to me too, as I have, at various times over the years, felt that I should play either slower or faster paced openings, hyper modern or classical, pawn chains or not, etc., I think I'm still trying to 'know thyself' in this game...
However, posters here have been their usual patient and helpful selves with me, so thanks for that - as stated previously, the original question was aiming at the theoretical workload of the two complexes, so any further comments on that would make interesting reading.
Meantime I'm going Grunfeld, I believe.
Cheers
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #11 - 03/29/14 at 01:58:48
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I find these sort of questions a little puzzling, as the openings in question are vastly different, in my opinion.   

Do you like positions where queens can come off the board early and competing pawn majorities?  Play the Grunfeld.

Do you like long forcing lines?  Then play the Grunfeld.  Do you like maximum flexibility regarding the placement of your pieces and pawns?  Then play the Nimzo/QID.

Do you like closed centers with pawn chains?  Play the Nimzo/QID.   

Do you like having center pawns at all?  Then don't play the Grunfeld. 

Do you like a very rapid pace of play, where central clashes and attacks can start very quickly?  Play the Grunfeld.  Do you like a slower pace of play where the tactics are often put off until the middlegame, after both sides have "built up" their position a bit?  Play the Nimzo/QID.

And on and on.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #10 - 03/28/14 at 23:34:58
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slates wrote on 03/28/14 at 23:16:23:

I'm committing to the Grunfeld then. Still interested in the experiences of others who've debated which of these options to go for, though.


One very good point about the Grunfeld is that it can work very well against players who don't know a lot of theory, but just play solidly in Queen Pawn positions. So whilst a plan of playing d4, c4, e3, b3, Nf3, Nc3, Be2, Bb2 can work reasonably well against a Kings Indian, against the Grunfeld that's asking for trouble. You go c5, Nc6, Qa5, Ne4 maybe and you are blowing them away before they've escaped the opening. The problem against people who know what they are doing is that Black can just get smothered and have to defend difficult technical positions.

Here's a personal example from quite a long time ago.

At the time, the player of the White pieces was around 1600-1800 standard and Black around 2000.

  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #9 - 03/28/14 at 23:16:23
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@TN yes, I have studied the Grunfeld more: I read Rowson's book from cover to cover and enjoyed all of it, but each time I've bought a Nimzo book I've tended to study a couple of mainlines and then my interest wanes. 
I struggle to really understand the main Slav lines otherwise the Schlecter might gave been a good idea. I just found it difficult to generate much play in the main Slav lines after 6.e3 in particular.

@CanadianClub yes, good point. 

I'm committing to the Grunfeld then. Still interested in the experiences of others who've debated which of these options to go for, though.

Thanks to all who've posted.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #8 - 03/28/14 at 22:44:19
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If you think your game needs to be improved on tactics, perhaps playing something that focus on it can be good for you ... Grünfeld rulez!
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #7 - 03/28/14 at 11:35:01
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I'd say the Grunfeld would be better for you (and arguably less work as you've already studied the positions a bit, while I assume you haven't closely examined the NID/QID yet). But I'll mention as an aside that the Schlechter Slav (meeting e3 lines with ...g6) combined with whatever takes your fancy after 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 (I'd suggest the main line Slav as being consistent) and the Exchange (Vigus's 6...Nh5/5...Qb6 lines spice the game up a bit) could also be a decent repertoire choice, as there's less of a need for either side to find critical 'only moves' to generate play. 

  

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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #6 - 03/28/14 at 09:32:20
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Hi Slates, TalJechin's "the most important thing is the motivation to actually do the work!" and your own "but I don't get as excited by it as I do the Grunfeld" just confirm that you've made the right choice. I'd second believing in one book whichever one it is. The Rowson book "Understanding the Grunfeld" is often mentioned as outstanding. Another point to stimulate confidence in the opening and therefore, in contradiction, give you more time to concentrate on the important parts of the game, is to cover "the rest". Again an often recommended book is Yelena Dembo's "Fighting the Anti King's Indians" which I believe covers everything after 1.d4 that isn't a proper KI or Grunfeld and even something against the English.


   
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #5 - 03/27/14 at 21:33:35
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I think you should go with your heart. Most players get a crush (or even fall in love) on an opening at times and it's usually a good thing, as the most important thing is the motivation to actually do the work!

Don't make a long list of things you must or should do, instead make a short list of things you want to do! When it's done you can always make a new list... 

The Safest Grunfeld is a quite good starting point, go through it at a leisurely pace, noting set-ups and thematic ideas and of course - play the opening as much as you can and do research if you run into trouble in some line.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #4 - 03/27/14 at 18:39:06
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Thanks all so far. Each response encourages me as you all make valid points. Inn2, I feel that the Grunfeld definitely fits your criteria ii) and iii), but as yet I'm not sure about i).

I enjoy studying and playing the Grunfeld, but for years a lack of belief in my tactical abilities has led me to believe I must be more of a 'positional' player, so I have therefore shied away from tactical openings. For this reason I thought the NID/QID combo would be a better fit but I have never really enjoyed the position types as much.

I have tried the Nimzo on and off with various books from Emms' Easy Guide to his more recent Move by Move, but I don't get as excited by it as I do the Grunfeld. I suppose this is sufficient to say that I've answered my own question....but the input of posters here certainly helps, as I so often read that players below a certain strength shouldn't even attempt to play x opening, for example.

I guess I go with the Grunfeld and see where it takes me - as Laramonet says, I can judge it later, or have it judge me  Wink

Katar, thanks for your encouraging words; I'll view your video when next at a computer, I just tried via the ipad I'm on now but of course IOS limits playback options on such devices, unfortunately, and it won't play.
  
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Re: Indian defences workload: Grunfeld, NID/QID
Reply #3 - 03/27/14 at 17:42:06
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slates wrote on 03/27/14 at 07:44:24:

I'd like to return fully to the Grunfeld as I like the position types, but despite this I'm forever reading or being told that it's too advanced for players below 1500, for example. 

Any opening is "too advanced" if the goal is to memorize every subtlety.  Your heart pulls you to Grunfeld, so go for it, case closed!
My opinion is that Grunfeld can be a fine choice for club players (as with any logical/quality opening!).  Keep in mind at your level you will face mostly London/Colle Systems.  And I believe Grunfeld is a great choice against "systems" with a bishop on d3.  If White builds a modest triangle you can go Bg4 pinning, then Nbd7 and then either (or both) of e7-e5 and c7-c5 to blast open the center.

If you buy 10 repertoire books on Grunfeld or Avrukh's telephone books on it, you will bury yourself.  (Just as if you buy 10 books on London or Colle System, or any opening.)  Too much workload is your fault if it happens.

So just get a nice basic book on Grunfeld to keep your life simple.  Thinner books are better than thick ones because concise books prioritize the more critical info and leave out the trivialities.

Sounds like you just need a bit of confidence or reassurance for your choice.  Study dynamic play, like Spielmann Art of Sacrifice.  It is in the spirit of Grunfeld and will help your overall chess more than opening-specific study.

Can i post a link to a video I made on a Grunfeld game?  (brabo does this all the time)    http://www.chessvideos.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8311

Anyway i think there is very good instruction in that video if i may say so myself!
Happy Hunting
  

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