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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3 (Read 12025 times)
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #15 - 06/16/14 at 10:17:44
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PANFR wrote on 06/14/14 at 11:33:41:
9.Bf3! is the right move to play


Hello PANFR,

I am not sure why 9.Bf3 is such a strong move and with which plan it is connected ?

White has a queenside pawn majority and the bishop from e2 looks well positioned to support c4. However it is true that after an exchange on d5, the bishop on f3 is placed similarly to some variations from the Sveshnikov.

Once the bishop is on f3, maybe g3 has to follow up and then moving the bishop again to g2, this looks a little bit slow but maybe black has no better than to strengthen his queenside position first anyway and starting counter-play on the kingside later with f5-f4 ideas.

The nice thing about chess is that everything that is not losing at once is possible, so it might also be possible to wait a bit and see what Black is doing, e.g. in case of early castling after Bf3 maybe push forward with g4 and ideas of g5/Rg1/h4...and castling long for White  Tongue

I have to check this Bf3 a bit more.
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #14 - 06/14/14 at 11:33:41
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9.Bf3! is the right move to play- actually this plan, regardless if white plays Be3 or Be2 first, is one of the most dangerous ones against the Najdorf. Castling is not a priority- Black has no good way to obstruct white's normal development.
The choice between Be3 and Be2 (first) depends on what white likes to play against the ...e6 formations.
Actually Black may "force" Be2 first by 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 (7.Bg5 does not give Black any real problems, according to the recent theory trends) 7...Nf6, etc.
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #13 - 06/13/14 at 08:12:04
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Hello All,

Updating the thread as the game is finished : draw.

I did choose an "original" knight manoeuvre early on hoping to get an interesting game outside the well trodden paths....

The middlegame was a bit disappointing playwise and I did not manage to print my mark (vs the silicon beast).

Eventually there was an opportunity to reach an unbalanced endgame but that gave nothing.



The main point of the endgame was to exchange the queens to neutralize white's piece activity and to try to get something of the centrals pawns. Unfortunately it was not possible (or I did not find the way) to make this exchange in a favourable way for black and had to give up materials to reach B+P/R.

The black king is difficult to activate while the white counterpart can be centralized easily.

Draw was agreed as there are no way to really make progress (after a festival of pawn moves and captures the game tends towards a rook vs bishop endgame and before that there are the tablebase check ...).

However,  I would say that there are some interesting ideas for black especially in the early middlegame when the opponent is not a "centaur".
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #12 - 04/13/14 at 12:43:33
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Quote:

personally, I don't think this is ethical to do


Well Tony, this is not like I have no clue. I have surveyed already all the available databases and a couple of nice trees and books (literature) so I have a pretty fair idea of how the game unfold in most of the cases ... I am not asking for grid computing and replying by inserting the computer analysis.

I am looking for thoughts on the positions and the merits of the various plans... That said I can follow whatever tree and most likely make a draw  Wink.

For instance, I did notice that an early a4 (hinted at by Vass) by white is kind of "killing" black with a serious bind if not careful even though the move is not at all among the engines favorite with a superficial glance !

so overall I don´t see this as unethical, this is more an "informal" discussion, as my lovely trainer puts "all these words are nice, what counts are the moves".

**edit** : why not make of this thread a nice discussion on this variant / position. After all, this is what is the forum about : exchanging ideas about the game of chess ! Cheesy
« Last Edit: 04/15/14 at 10:58:03 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #11 - 04/13/14 at 11:20:25
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LGXIII wrote on 04/13/14 at 11:10:41:

Regarding the ethic, no worries initially my aim was (still is) to discuss the available plans for black and their merits/drawbacks in the position after white´s 12th move, it won´t be a move-by-move stuff, but I ll post the game at some point when it is advanced and various stuff for discussion in the meantime.

personally, I don't think this is ethical to do
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #10 - 04/13/14 at 11:10:41
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brabo wrote on 04/13/14 at 06:26:42:


I get the feeling that you are busy playing a correspondence game so not sure if it is really ethical to support. However as I am also interested in this position I give below some analysis (made in 2009 so probably can be improved with today's stronger SW and HW) which are worth a look at.


Hello Brabo, thanks. 

Interesting game. The funny thing is that I mentioned that I like the early b6/a5 (or a5/b6) idea as your opponent played. 

Regarding the ethic, no worries initially my aim was (still is) to discuss the available plans for black and their merits/drawbacks in the position after white´s 12th move, it won´t be a move-by-move stuff, but I ll post the game at some point when it is advanced and various stuff for discussion in the meantime.

  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #9 - 04/13/14 at 06:26:42
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LGXIII wrote on 04/12/14 at 22:04:51:
Hello All,

Finally, I decided to go for the classical 12...Rc8. 

I liked the idea of trying to forestall white´s play on the queenside with an anticipated 12...b6-a5 but it has the inconvenient to allow (maybe) an immediate strike in the center.

So let´s induce white in playing c4 and proceed in typical manner.

Tongue

I get the feeling that you are busy playing a correspondence game so not sure if it is really ethical to support. However as I am also interested in this position I give below some analysis (made in 2009 so probably can be improved with today's stronger SW and HW) which are worth a look at. My opponent in the game is today a strong international master of almost 2500 fide: http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=1025007
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #8 - 04/12/14 at 22:04:51
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Hello All,

Finally, I decided to go for the classical 12...Rc8. 

I liked the idea of trying to forestall white´s play on the queenside with an anticipated 12...b6-a5 but it has the inconvenient to allow (maybe) an immediate strike in the center.

So let´s induce white in playing c4 and proceed in typical manner.

Tongue
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #7 - 04/11/14 at 23:59:04
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brabo wrote on 04/11/14 at 21:13:51:
LGXIII wrote on 04/11/14 at 09:37:00:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3 O-O 10.O-O Nbd7 11.Nd5 Bxd5 12.exd5.


Can you tell us why you are looking at this position as today very few players are entering this line with white?

I know as I am one of these few players so naturally have a more than average interest in this position. I got this position in official games 9 times on the board against opposition 2200-2450 fide. However I use a different move-order with white.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 e5 7.Nb3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Be3 Be6 10.Nd5 Nbd7 11.Qd3 Bxd5 12.exd5 and now I encountered
4x Nc5, 2x Re8, 1x Rc8, 1x Ne8, 1x e4 In all these games an interesting complex strategic fight happened on the board. Probably it is very well playable for black but I keep playing it with white as there is no quick draw, experience certainly helps to make better decisions and white can often create chances.

I want to add one important detail about the move-order. You play Qd3 before Nd5 which is something I wanted to play to avoid the possibility 10...Nxe4 as my move-order permits and leading to very complicated play. However first Qd3 permits 10...Nc6 instead of 10...Nbd7 after which I couldn't find anything interesting for white which is also shown by the statistics.


Hello Brabo,

I am looking at this position from black perspective and in fact this is the first time I see this move order so I am looking for forum opinions !

Thanks for the remark about 9.Qd3 allowing an immediate Nc6, I discarded Nc6 on general statistical impression but I looked again (and better) and it does seem interesting for black, so a good lesson on being a bit more critical for me.

Otherwise, I am not convinced that allowing 9...Ne4 by playing 9.Nd5 is such a good bargain for black **after Bb6 and giving the exchange**! Maybe in OTB but in correspondence play I would bet this is difficult to find the compensation for the exchange even if the material is theoretically equal N+P for Rook...


  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #6 - 04/11/14 at 21:13:51
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LGXIII wrote on 04/11/14 at 09:37:00:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3 O-O 10.O-O Nbd7 11.Nd5 Bxd5 12.exd5.


Can you tell us why you are looking at this position as today very few players are entering this line with white?

I know as I am one of these few players so naturally have a more than average interest in this position. I got this position in official games 9 times on the board against opposition 2200-2450 fide. However I use a different move-order with white.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be2 e5 7.Nb3 Be7 8.0-0 0-0 9.Be3 Be6 10.Nd5 Nbd7 11.Qd3 Bxd5 12.exd5 and now I encountered
4x Nc5, 2x Re8, 1x Rc8, 1x Ne8, 1x e4 In all these games an interesting complex strategic fight happened on the board. Probably it is very well playable for black but I keep playing it with white as there is no quick draw, experience certainly helps to make better decisions and white can often create chances.

I want to add one important detail about the move-order. You play Qd3 before Nd5 which is something I wanted to play to avoid the possibility 10...Nxe4 as my move-order permits and leading to very complicated play. However first Qd3 permits 10...Nc6 instead of 10...Nbd7 after which I couldn't find anything interesting for white which is also shown by the statistics.
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #5 - 04/11/14 at 17:04:31
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LGXIII wrote on 04/11/14 at 14:33:10:


These are just calculators really and besides helpless without opening books made by humans and without middlegame plans also by humans  Roll Eyes!



In my practice as a correspondence chess player I had so many possibilities to assure myself of this... So, here comes the significant difference between the good and the bad players in this type of chess. A move like Be6-c4 in the game I just showed tells me that some players are too-much-engine-believers, who don't understanding what the chess is.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #4 - 04/11/14 at 14:33:10
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kylemeister wrote on 04/11/14 at 14:22:56:
That ...Bc4 and ...Be6 looks odd indeed, giving White an old 6. Be2 main line with an extra tempo.


Hello Kyle,

In one of my current game, I had some great fun looking at what the computer was doing ... I am in a Najdorf English Attack with 8...h5 (playing the black side) after the play took a positional nature, the computer "left alone" was turning around in 3 fold repetitions 2 or 3 times already...

These are just calculators really and besides helpless without opening books made by humans and without middlegame plans also by humans  Roll Eyes!

  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #3 - 04/11/14 at 14:22:56
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That ...Bc4 and ...Be6 looks odd indeed, giving White an old 6. Be2 main line with an extra tempo.
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #2 - 04/11/14 at 12:37:31
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[quote author=44736161120 link=1397209020/1#1 date=1397214593]Well, you have to be aware of possible transpositions on the way to the position you give (after 12.exd5).
12...Ne8 is a good chance for black to complicate things, however white has 11.a4... which doesn't allow such knight manoevres. The purpose for white's 11.a4 is to improve on the queenside before playing Nc3-d5.

Hello Vass,

Thanks for the reply. 

Indeed, this plan with a4 looks to be a real pain for black to handle in any of the "main" variations just by the look of the middlegame positions... None of the options where there is "immediate action" look promising for black if white is careful.

Therefore b6 is tempting (with an idea of a5 at some point later) and then slowly expand on the kingside but this goes against my OTB sense to look for active play quicker with black.

PS : Nice handling of the endgame ! manoeuvre like Bc4 - Be6 from black looks typically computerish  Grin (ok maybe the white queen is worse on d2 but still...)

By the way,  just wanted to thank you for your various contributions on the forum, many interesting reads for me !
  
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Re: Najdorf - 6.Be3 e5 7.Nb3 Be6 8.Be2 Be7 9.Qd3
Reply #1 - 04/11/14 at 11:09:53
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Well, you have to be aware of possible transpositions on the way to the position you give (after 12.exd5).
12...Ne8 is a good chance for black to complicate things, however white has 11.a4... which doesn't allow such knight manoevres. The purpose for white's 11.a4 is to improve on the queenside before playing Nc3-d5.
Here I'll publish one of my correspondence chess games where I played 10.a4 with this exact idea in mind, so a little transposition had its place and my opponent mixed up somehow, didn't play 12...Qc7 and eventually lost (probably because he lost tempo with 12...Bc4 and white advanced on the queenside pretty soon).

  
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