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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit (Read 13731 times)
Dean
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #13 - 01/21/15 at 21:39:58
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Tim-G-London wrote on 01/01/15 at 11:36:36:
I started this thread w/ doubts re a line I played in CC vs a Russian player Permykov. I duly lost the game and never found any improvements at this site despite Kosten's suggestion that they were there...somewhere.
This is the game. I tried out what I thought/think was Kosten's idea but it was duly refuted. I wd b v interested to know what Richard Pert's comment is.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 4.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.d5 Qb6 7.e4 Qxb2 8.Nd2 Qxc3 9.Bc7 g6 10.Rc1 Qe3+ 11.Ne2 d6 12.Nc4 Qh6 13.Rb1 Bg7 14.Ba5 g5 15.Bd2 Qg6 16.h4 gxh4 17.Rxh4 h5 18.Qa4+ Bd7 19.Qa3 Nxd5 20.Rxb7 Qf6 21.g3 Nb4 22.Bxb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Nc6 24.Rb7 Ne5 25.Nf4 Qg5 26.Kf2 Nxc4 27.Bxc4 Bd4+ 28.Kg2 Rg8 29.Ne2 Qxh4 30.Bxf7+ Kxf7 31.Qb3+ Be6
Angry



There is an improvement with 13. Ba5!? taking home the B. Perhaps white can equalize I don't know. 13.. b5 14. Bd2 Qg7 15. Na5 e6 16. a4 Be7 17. dxe6 etc. It is very messy and unclear at least.
  
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RivertonKnight
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #12 - 01/06/15 at 02:10:53
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I was interested for a second and did some Stockfish work.
  

Tromp_Test.pgn ( 9 KB | 195 Downloads )
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fling
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #11 - 01/01/15 at 14:18:01
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I don't play the Tromp, but find it hard that White objectively should be better after 9. Bc7, although in practice it seems good OTB. If a player like Grischuk can get into such a bad position, it can of course hardly be seen as a harmless variation... I checked the book, and Pert gives several alternatives to the pawn sac, and to 4. f3 as well.

However, I fail to see the point of e.g. 18. Qa4+. Trying to develop the kingside pieces must surely be more important for White and the following pawn swap must benefit Black more than White, or is there something else to it? And maybe 13. Qb3 is better than moving the rook again?

After looking at the variations in the book and at previously played games, it seems hard for Black to develop, though. It will be interesting to see other suggestions.
  
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Tim-G-London
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #10 - 01/01/15 at 11:36:36
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I started this thread w/ doubts re a line I played in CC vs a Russian player Permykov. I duly lost the game and never found any improvements at this site despite Kosten's suggestion that they were there...somewhere.
This is the game. I tried out what I thought/think was Kosten's idea but it was duly refuted. I wd b v interested to know what Richard Pert's comment is.

1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 4.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.d5 Qb6 7.e4 Qxb2 8.Nd2 Qxc3 9.Bc7 g6 10.Rc1 Qe3+ 11.Ne2 d6 12.Nc4 Qh6 13.Rb1 Bg7 14.Ba5 g5 15.Bd2 Qg6 16.h4 gxh4 17.Rxh4 h5 18.Qa4+ Bd7 19.Qa3 Nxd5 20.Rxb7 Qf6 21.g3 Nb4 22.Bxb4 cxb4 23.Rxb4 Nc6 24.Rb7 Ne5 25.Nf4 Qg5 26.Kf2 Nxc4 27.Bxc4 Bd4+ 28.Kg2 Rg8 29.Ne2 Qxh4 30.Bxf7+ Kxf7 31.Qb3+ Be6
Angry
  

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RoleyPoley
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #9 - 06/27/14 at 18:06:00
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IMRichardPert wrote on 06/25/14 at 12:22:37:
Hi, this is my first time writing on the forum, so I thought I would start by writing about a post about my book.



There is another thread here about your book, as someone who is considering on using it play the take up the Tromp it would be interesting to see your thoughts on their comments. Smiley
« Last Edit: 06/28/14 at 07:20:49 by GMTonyKosten »  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

Victor Bologan.
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IMRichardPert
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #8 - 06/25/14 at 12:22:37
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Hi, this is my first time writing on the forum, so I thought I would start by writing about a post about my book. I noticed a couple of people mention that the occasional line in this double pawn sacrifice variation are given as better for Black by the computers. This is true, however the computers (similarly to the humans) find it very hard to evaluate these positions with material imbalances. From a practical viewpoint however Whites chances are excellent, and the latest game I have witnessed in this variation (using a novelty from the book) saw Alan Walton (rated 2104) beat Richard Bates (who is an IM) at the last 4ncl weekend. After 9.Bc7 d6 10.Rb1 Nfd7 11.Bb5 g6 12. Ne2 Qf6 13.0-0!N (in the book - a new plan where White plays a quick f4 and Nf3 targeting the Black Queen) Bg7 14.f4 0-0 and here Alan played the slightly inaccurate 15.Kh1 (however he followed up with Nf3 winning Richard Bates queen a few moves later and recorded a fine win against an IM). He possibly would have had an even better position if he had of played 15.Nf3 straight away (as in the book) and saved a tempo! So it is dangerous for Black and I know at least 3 titled players (without naming them and giving away their opening preparation :) ) who have changed their repertoire against the Tromp specifically to avoid this line. Hope that's of help!
  
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #7 - 06/18/14 at 14:22:19
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TonyRo wrote on 06/17/14 at 22:14:48:
Anyway, an easier way to track down a line in question is to download the PGN archive of all of the d-pawn specials and then filter them in SCID or Chessbase.


The variation appears to have been more popular in correspondence chess than over the board. I would have regarded the critical position as being at move 7 where you used to have to play 7. b3 or 7. Bc1 to avoid losing all your pawns. But then they discovered the 9. Bc7 idea. I suspect it remains frontiers of theory, so if you and your computer can work out what's going on, come back and tell the rest of us. Does Richard Pert mention correspondence games, or is he relying on Blitz and other unpublished games for practical tests?
In England anyway, the heyday of the Tromp was in the 1990s, when if you were playing in a Congress you could take a look at the top boards of the Open and find out latest theory from what Adams, Hodgson and others were playing.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #6 - 06/18/14 at 11:25:58
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Tim-G-London wrote on 06/17/14 at 21:30:21:
I am now subscribing to the QP Pawn special and though I went through all R Pert's archive postings back to 2009, I haven't found anything on this position. Which issue is it in please?


Once you download the requisite Playable Guide, and all the d-Pawn games, it should be easy enough to find what you're looking for. Don't look for 'Pert' though, he never worked for the site! Look for Eric Pri or Richard Palliser.

TonyRo wrote on 06/17/14 at 22:14:48:
But if Tony thinks it's fine, it's fine for me too!


It wouldn't even occur to me that a Forum member might be trying to gain some sort of advantage in a corr. game!

  
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #5 - 06/17/14 at 22:14:48
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ICCF rules state very clearly that "players will decide the moves for themselves". This is relatively ambiguous with regards to computer use (this is never enforced) but fairly obvious with regards to asking other people to suggest moves in a position occurring in one of your games. I'm not the forum police, but any time this issue has come up in the forums asking for assistance in Correspondence games has been frowned upon. But if Tony thinks it's fine, it's fine for me too! If this isn't a current postal game of yours, then my apologies for the miscommunication!

Anyway, an easier way to track down a line in question is to download the PGN archive of all of the d-pawn specials and then filter them in SCID or Chessbase. Up until about a year ago it hadn't dawned on me that this was possible either.
  
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Tim-G-London
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #4 - 06/17/14 at 21:30:21
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The question of the whether it is a postal game is irrelevant. BTW I have been playing postal chess for 55 years on & off and have never heard of the book of morals referred to.
The point of my original post that I am pointing out what to my mind is a flaw in R. Pert's analysis in his book.
I am now subscribing to the QP Pawn special and though I went through all R Pert's archive postings back to 2009, I haven't found anything on this position. Which issue is it in please?
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 4.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.d5 Qb67.e4 Qxb2 8.Nd2 Qxc3 9.Bc7 g6 10.Rc1 Qe3+ 11.Ne2 d612.Nc4 Qh6 13.Rb1 Bg7 14.Ba5 g5 15.Bd2 Qg6
I tried Mr Kosten's idea but it has recreated a position which the computer assesses as between -0.80 & -1.0
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #3 - 05/16/14 at 15:13:36
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First, welcome to the forum Tim, glad to have you! Grin

With that said, a few things:

1. Make an effort to ensure your analysis is readable. It helps to keep to PGN notation - you can do this by simply copying the analysis from a program. In your case, it looks like you started to do this, and something went crazy with the text. You can also wrap text in PGN tags (you can find the option up close to the font options) to post the moves on a playable board, e.g.



You can take a look at how I did this by quoting my post - you can read the raw text that way.

2. Asking for assistance in correspondence games is highly unethical and frowned upon. Please don't do this in the future.

Thanks, and glad to have another dedicated poster and analyst!
  
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Tim-G-London
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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #2 - 05/09/14 at 21:08:22
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Dear Tony,
Tx Tony, that is a great idea! And well as an esteemed GM for you it's obvious; for me as humble club player not so....
And not for Stockfish either. Thanks very much.
You have got rid of the deflated feeling in my ICCF game vs a Russian opponent i.e. at least I will have a playable game.

And tx for the tip re Richard's "extensive treatment on the main site". That is an incentive to subscribe for sure. BTW I was a subscriber some 10 yrs ago.
  

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Re: Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
Reply #1 - 05/09/14 at 10:07:02
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Tim-G-London wrote on 05/08/14 at 11:37:35:
10 rc1 qe3ch 11 ne2 d6 12. Nc4qh6 13rb1 bg7 -.76
One SCID line shows need to check.  Huh


14 Ba5-d2 seems obvious, if Black replies with ...g5 then he finds himself a tempo down on the mainline with 9...d6! Eric has analysed this Chernyshov line extensively on the main site.
  
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Tim-G-London
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Flaw in Pert's book w/ his 2-pawn gambit
05/08/14 at 11:37:35
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My experience shows a limitation in Richard Pert newbk (2013) on the Trompovsky.
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 Ne4 3.Bf4 c5 4.f3 Qa5+ 5.c3 Nf6 6.d5 Qb67.e4 Qxb2 8.Nd2 Qxc3 9.Bc7 g6

Here I looked forward to exploring the detailed analysis of a newish gambit Richard Pert recommends  He quotes the line

9...g6?! was played in the first game in this
line, but it doesnt seem to work and it has
rarely been tried since: 10.c1 e3 11.e2
a6 12.c4 h6 13.f4 g7 14.a4 g5
15.e5 g4 16.f4 g6 17.g3 Chernyshov
Grischuk, Dagomys 2005; Black is totally
passive and Whites advantage is significant.

However I got a shock when I realised that Black has a much stronger continuation which is to play d7-d6 soonest; this cuts of the bishop on c7 from kingside. White has sacked 2 pawns and needs sth v clear otherwise blacks piece coordination is unproblematic and can develop, consolidate and win with the two pawns.
|Here are some typical lines f/ SCID using Stockfish (not latest but gd enough 4 my humble purposes). 10 rc1 qe3ch 11 ne2 d6 12. Nc4qh6 13rb1 bg7 -.76
One SCID line shows need to check. After previous variation then 13. Qb3 na6 14 ba5 nd7 15 bd2 qg7 16. Ng3 nc7 17. A4 rb8 18. Be2 b6 19.0-0 a6 20 rfd1 b5 21. Na5cvh c4 22. Qb1 qd4ch 23. Kh1 Qb6. 24 nc6 ra8. Given as -0.34. But wqhite can recapture one pawn 25. Ba5 qb2 followed by bc4: and white will recapture b5 pawn with a slight edge.
Chess is the tragedy of one move. If only one could get in f3-f4 and e5.
Any ideas?
Huh
  

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