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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes. (Read 31735 times)
brabo
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #26 - 06/06/14 at 11:46:32
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/06/14 at 10:27:37:
Keano wrote on 06/02/14 at 14:33:14:
In short, cheating is not a big problem in chess despite what you read in chessbase or other places.


Actually, cheating in chess is much more common than you would think. I've seen literally hundreds of cases since I started playing chess professionally! However, these were almost all before iPhones and the like existed; arranging games and asking advice from strong players were the two most likely problems.
Nowadays the temptation to nip into the toilets and quickly analyse a critical position with Fritz on your phone is surely too great for the dishonest, and very difficult to detect.

Then why do we only start to react today on the many cheating cases? I fully agree that cheating has always existed but what is now different that we do have to take drastic measurements? Could it be because now the top players are threatened by the cheating which wasn't the case before?
  
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MartinC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #25 - 06/06/14 at 11:42:25
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Not that hard to catch on the ground really? Some people have been of course.

Certainly easier than detecting people asking for advice Smiley
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #24 - 06/06/14 at 10:27:37
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Keano wrote on 06/02/14 at 14:33:14:
In short, cheating is not a big problem in chess despite what you read in chessbase or other places.


Actually, cheating in chess is much more common than you would think. I've seen literally hundreds of cases since I started playing chess professionally! However, these were almost all before iPhones and the like existed; arranging games and asking advice from strong players were the two most likely problems.
Nowadays the temptation to nip into the toilets and quickly analyse a critical position with Fritz on your phone is surely too great for the dishonest, and very difficult to detect.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #23 - 06/05/14 at 07:06:15
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Keano wrote on 06/04/14 at 16:28:05:
I think something like this will lead to problems, especially if put into the hands of over zealous administrators.

Soon chess will catch up and have some type of scanner for arbiters to check for electronic activity I reckon. For the moment we need to apply common sense. Everybody could see Ivanov was cheating, and he had a big hump on his back under his jumper. He was a very bright cheater in one way but very dumb in another in that he got caught and arose so much suspicion in the first place.

As I said before, cheating is not a big problem in chess, and what little there is of it we will eliminate in due course. Lifetime bans should be implemented in the meantime to make sure it is simply not worth risking for anybody.

The ways and means are known from time immemorial..
If you want to gain command of a certain activity, just pick up an inherent problem, exaggerate it well and then become the driving force of the powers that can deal with it. In order to take hold of the whole community, make new authorities, create 'special forces' and...voila - the world is yours!
Nothing new under the sun.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #22 - 06/05/14 at 05:59:16
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GeneM wrote on 06/03/14 at 05:57:52:
. .
Moving this topic-thread from General Chess was not a good decision, and I don't like it.
. .



Seconded.

The thread is not about computers, it is about cheating in chess and belongs in the forum it was originally posted.

Another point:  it would be very much in the vested interest of certain organizers to be the ones supporting cheating efforts.

Cheating will never be eliminated, in chess, or in life.  Cheating is a part of every single competitive event humans have ever concocted and historically people breaking rules have always been one step ahead of those enforcing them.



  
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Keano
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #21 - 06/04/14 at 16:28:05
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I think something like this will lead to problems, especially if put into the hands of over zealous administrators.

Soon chess will catch up and have some type of scanner for arbiters to check for electronic activity I reckon. For the moment we need to apply common sense. Everybody could see Ivanov was cheating, and he had a big hump on his back under his jumper. He was a very bright cheater in one way but very dumb in another in that he got caught and arose so much suspicion in the first place.

As I said before, cheating is not a big problem in chess, and what little there is of it we will eliminate in due course. Lifetime bans should be implemented in the meantime to make sure it is simply not worth risking for anybody.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #20 - 06/04/14 at 13:33:58
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Statisticians have already done tests to see how play deteriorates in blitz and fast chess time controls. I don't have the links at my fingertips, but their conclusions were that playing blitz chess dropped a player's ability about as much as playing blindfold chess does. I remember the number 200 rating points being mentioned. I'm sure that if you are interested, you can find these articles for yourself.

There's also the principle of monotonicity. Statisticians have also shown that engines tend to agree with each other in deeper and deeper ply. So even if the cheater is using an old engine, they will still be caught using Regan's method. The article does address this point.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #19 - 06/04/14 at 06:53:10
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Bibs wrote on 06/03/14 at 23:51:17:
Let us avoid, shall we.


As far as I can see, there are those who want a license to trawl through pgn files looking for supposed cheaters regardless of what any witnesses might say about the circumstances of the game and regardless of any connection with the event and the players in it. I don't think they should be given such a license.

The technique of statistically trying to evaluate move quality may be interesting and valid but I would rather it were used for training or to test how much fast time controls can affect the accuracy of play. For that matter it would be fascinating to see whether it could identify on a blind test, games known to have been played where one or both players was a computer engine. A cynic says that won't be published as if it cannot identify known engine play, particularly by older and less competent engines, that discredits it as a detector of engine use. For that matter, there have been a handful of exhibition "advance chess" games. Could these be detected alongside normal games by the same players?
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #18 - 06/03/14 at 23:51:17
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hicetnunc wrote on 06/03/14 at 16:17:40:
"Witchfinder" is a very misleading and intellectually dishonest term. You can't compare protecting chess from cheating with the dark practices this word conjures up...  Angry


I do agree that Name Calling is unhelpful, and a bit school playground. Yes, RdC, we are familiar with the usual stock of rhetorical tools.
Let us avoid, shall we.
Perhaps RdC is a fan of cult horror, though this is probably best avoided as it just is not very good at all...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchfinder_General_(film)
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #17 - 06/03/14 at 22:42:40
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GeneM wrote on 06/03/14 at 05:57:52:
. .
Moving this topic-thread from General Chess was not a good decision, and I don't like it.
. .


This section is called "Chess and Computers". This thread is about chess and computers. It is now where it belongs.
  
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hicetnunc
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #16 - 06/03/14 at 16:17:40
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"Witchfinder" is a very misleading and intellectually dishonest term. You can't compare protecting chess from cheating with the dark practices this word conjures up...  Angry
  

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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #15 - 06/03/14 at 16:01:34
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Bibs wrote on 06/03/14 at 13:19:29:
I
Early days, but people are trying to introduce measures to stop cheating. Are such efforts not to be encouraged? Or would you prefer to let the likes of Ivanov just romp home in his Funky Chessy Shoes?


In Over the Board chess it is forbidden to consult external sources of information. That's in the Laws of Chess and always has been and I suggest that in the tournament or match environment with witnesses, players respect this. The difficulty is not with those who would come tooled up with secret equipment since they are obviously guilty once you establish their method, but with more occasional cheaters, who would consult an engine for help during a game.

So with the main danger being smart phones, you need to establish how far you go to ensure that such a phone is both switched off at the start of the game and remains switched of for the duration of the game. For that matter establishing stronger conventions on when it was OK to be out of sight of opponents and arbiters would be useful. There's a constraint that amateur players will be playing before and after other activities, such as work, for which they may have a legitimate need to be in possession of a phone. The danger being that if you totally ban phones, you've banned chess competitions as well because no-one or not enough players are willing or able to play under those conditions.

I see nothing in the Witchfinder proposals that recognises that players prepare with computer engines and that playing strength can be variable.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #14 - 06/03/14 at 13:19:29
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It is not just 'moves' though, which is suggestive of the odd few moves. It is the unusual frequency of matching with computer moves.
It is not just playing above rating either, that happens plenty.
And I am sure Regan is fully aware that softwares are used to generate theory.
Early days, but people are trying to introduce measures to stop cheating. Are such efforts not to be encouraged? Or would you prefer to let the likes of Ivanov just romp home in his Funky Chessy Shoes?

  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #13 - 06/03/14 at 08:11:07
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/03/14 at 04:53:51:
  I'm glad that someone is doing something about this potential problem, personally, so long as he doesn't have the authority of an Inquisitor. 


That's not how it reads and if it isn't the intention, they should reword it. The ACP/FIDE proposal appears to be that notwithstanding the players, arbiters and organisers on the ground at a tournament being satisfied as to the integrity of play, that someone using a remote computer can express doubt about a game or series of games because a player is playing moves above their rating.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #12 - 06/03/14 at 05:57:52
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. .
Moving this topic-thread from General Chess was not a good decision, and I don't like it.
. .
  

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