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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes. (Read 31430 times)
MartinC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #71 - 06/09/14 at 14:29:12
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Definitely getting too obsessed about them Smiley Anyone who's premeditating cheating in a halfway competent manner will use something that's much harder to detect than staring at their smartphone!

Worries about the threat of casual cheating perhaps. The other thing of course is that smartwatches/ wearables are coming/even arrived. So do we ban watches next?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #70 - 06/09/14 at 14:18:39
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dfan wrote on 06/09/14 at 12:41:55:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 01:03:58:
I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced.

American here. I don't have a car and have already checked out of my hotel room by the time the final two rounds in a typical weekend tournament are played. I thought it was supposed to be good to be part of the 1%!


If you stayed the night at the hotel, the vast majority of hotels would hold your phone for you for free if you asked at the lobby, even in a safe-box.  I concede your point that it wouldn't always be easy or convenient for players, though.

I think that you will discourage more tournament organizers by requiring them to provide an additional service (how much insurance should they carry?  What standard of locking mechanism?) than you will discourage players with a simple ban.  If a simple ban were imposed, local players and tournament organizers can figure out their own solutions.  Additionally a tournament director that gets 100 players, for instance, will not need to be responsible for 100 $500+ pieces of equipment; the majority of players would find their own means of securing their private property (don't people always do this when traveling anyway?), and it would likely be sufficient if the tournament director could lock up about ten phones or so.  I doubt that sort of arrangement would discourage many TDs or players.

Edit: I also think that worrying about what to do with our cell phones (haven't we become far too obsessed with these things?) is obfuscating the real issue and point of the thread.
  
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dfan
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #69 - 06/09/14 at 12:41:55
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 01:03:58:
I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced.

American here. I don't have a car and have already checked out of my hotel room by the time the final two rounds in a typical weekend tournament are played. I thought it was supposed to be good to be part of the 1%!
  
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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #68 - 06/09/14 at 09:16:16
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MartinC wrote on 06/09/14 at 08:32:19:
Some countries very worried about it all, others in Europe having obvious problems with making that sort of ban work at all.


I suspect in England, we won't be changing the existing tournament rules. Namely that you can have a phone, tablet or laptop with you, but it must remain completely switched off for the entire game. You are only penalised with the loss of the game if the device makes a noise or you are caught with it switched on for non-chess purposes.

Many events aren't FIDE rated, so it becomes an ECF decision as to whether this is acceptable for grading. Tournament organisers control a significant minority of ECF voting rights.  As far as FIDE rating is concerned, that's where you could get a fight if FIDE won't accept games under those circumstances for ratings and Norms. For weekend tournaments anyway, it isn't mandatory from the entrant's viewpoint that they are FIDE rated. The crunch is likely to be the 4NCL which extends all the way from GMs to club players with 1600 ratings and can offer Norm possibilities to high scoring players.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #67 - 06/09/14 at 09:13:16
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 19:29:36:
Well, football needs storage of clothes and presumably safe storage of valuables. Chess now needs storage of electronic means of communications only. That's a milder requirement and should be entirely possible. It only seems a big difference because we're going from nothing to something.


At least in Nordic events I think there's already a practice of people handing in their phones to the arbiter - in one series match one guy handed it in because he had no idea how to turn the thing off! Smiley

So, when the number of handed in phones get too many, some kind of storage furniture does make sense (as long as it has lockable compartments the club/tm/arbiter doesn't need to take on more responsibility than that), and it shouldn't be too much of a cost - considering that clubs and tournaments are already supposed to provide digital clocks, boards, pieces, tables and chairs...

Maybe the US will come up with a different way to handle it, as many tournaments there seem to rely on players bringing their own boards and clocks - which seem to open a whole new can of worms for ways to cheat, but I suppose you already have ways to handle that...
  
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MartinC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #66 - 06/09/14 at 08:32:19
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The idea seems to be that the rule will allow the arbiters will systemically do nothing so long as you're not obvious about it.

I agree that this seems entirely silly, but apparently the politics wouldn't have allowed something else.

Some countries very worried about it all, others in Europe having obvious problems with making that sort of ban work at all.
  
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brabo
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #65 - 06/09/14 at 05:38:25
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Stigma wrote on 06/09/14 at 03:42:52:
But I guess clubs could be less strict on the no phones-policy than bigger tournaments.

Fide is clear from 1st of July that phones are forbidden in the playing zone for rated tournaments. The only thing they leave open, is the penalty. Now if somebody after several violations + warnings still brings his phone to the playing zone then what else than exclusion an arbiter can do, despite the type of tournament? If an arbiter doesn't react after several warnings then the arbiter can't be taken serious anymore.

Anyway many people already told me that they stop playing if somebody forces them to not have a mobile in the playing zone while no storage place will be available.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #64 - 06/09/14 at 03:42:52
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 01:03:58:
I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced. 

In fact, most nicer hotels or conference centers (where many tournaments are held) have safes that you can check valuables into for free, anyway. 

99% sounds very high to me. I don't have a car, and I frequently choose some other, less expensive accomodation a bit further from the playing hall; that way I can often afford two tournaments "for the price of one".

Sure, many tournaments are played in nice hotels, but sports halls, town halls, and schools are also commonly used in Europe.

If safe storage proves too difficult or costly for organizers, maybe they could at least provide a phone for players to use after their game has finished, to get in touch with family or friends and schedule dinner, analysis sessions etc. Payphones are mostly a thing of the past.

This would still be inconvenient for someone coming straight from work and going home after the game using public transport, walking or cycling; a fairly typical club chess situation. But I guess clubs could be less strict on the no phones-policy than bigger tournaments.
« Last Edit: 06/09/14 at 08:44:04 by Stigma »  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #63 - 06/09/14 at 01:03:58
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RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 22:22:40:
They would leave them at home. If this wasn't possible, they would decline to enter the tournament or refuse invitations to play in a league competition. It would be likely to vary by country, but how many organisers would find their competitions viable if their entries dropped by say 30%?


In that case, I presume the organizers (or even the players) would come up with their own solution, i.e. some kind of cloakroom or whatever.  But mandating that ALL tournaments provide secure cell phone storage for players!?!?  Why??  I don't get it. 

I certainly don't consider myself conservative at all, but maybe I'm too American to see the value in mandating that all tournaments provide cell phone storage.  I'd think that you'd lose far more events in that way because tournament directors couldn't provide that (or have to raise entrance fees substantially) than you would lose players who didn't want to leave their cell phone in their car or at home.  I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced. 

In fact, most nicer hotels or conference centers (where many tournaments are held) have safes that you can check valuables into for free, anyway. 

Anyhow that's my perspective, perhaps a survey would clear things up regarding how many players would boycott an event, but I don't see the need for FIDE to require that tournament organizers provide for a player's personal property.
  
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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #62 - 06/08/14 at 22:22:40
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 20:27:23:
The vast majority of players would figure out what to do with their phones.


They would leave them at home. If this wasn't possible, they would decline to enter the tournament or refuse invitations to play in a league competition. It would be likely to vary by country, but how many organisers would find their competitions viable if their entries dropped by say 30%?
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #61 - 06/08/14 at 20:27:23
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 19:29:36:
Well, football needs storage of clothes and presumably safe storage of valuables. Chess now needs storage of electronic means of communications only. That's a milder requirement and should be entirely possible. It only seems a big difference because we're going from nothing to something.


But chess would require it for orders of magnitude more people, not just the 15 players on a basketball team.  And I can't believe that we can compare the venue for an open tournament to the facilities at the Rose Bowl or Madison Square Garden or the like.  Requiring tournament organizers provide secure phone storage sounds like a death knell for tournaments; penalizing or forbidding players from bringing them into the playing hall does not.  The vast majority of players would figure out what to do with their phones.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #60 - 06/08/14 at 19:29:36
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Well, football needs storage of clothes and presumably safe storage of valuables. Chess now needs storage of electronic means of communications only. That's a milder requirement and should be entirely possible. It only seems a big difference because we're going from nothing to something.
  

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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #59 - 06/08/14 at 19:22:56
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 19:16:51:
And now that there's a reason you can't bring your phone into the playing area, chess has the exact same need.


Chess doesn't require use of a changing room with the obvious need to store normal clothes, so that is something of a major difference.

Mobile phones and other electronic devices are harmless and useless for cheating if switched off for the entire duration of the game. The question really is whether chess players can be trusted. In general, players are trusted not to discuss games during play with their coach, members of their club etc. or to look things up in the books on sale at a bookstall, so do electronic devices and the possibilities of consulting them introduce any new principles?
  
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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #58 - 06/08/14 at 19:17:12
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 18:12:26:
But a requirement seems ridiculous.


If you were running a tournament or league under the FIDE Laws of Chess and those rules said that players would lose if you have a mobile phone or other electronic device in their possession, what are your options?

You could follow the strict letter of the law and risk no-one turning up, or devise some means whereby mobile phones could be placed out of use for the duration of the game.
  
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Stigma
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Reply #57 - 06/08/14 at 19:16:51
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 18:12:26:
Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 16:11:05:
I don't understand why a smart guy like you doesn't understand the fuss. Smiley


I'm probably too American but I don't see why an organizer should be required to protect someone's personal property.  Would it be a nice service to the players, and perhaps attract more?  Of course.  But a requirement seems ridiculous.

It just occured to me that other sports have more or less the same issue, and have had it for ages. You don't run around with your phone or your wallet on a track, a basketball court or a football pitch.

I haven't really been playing sports and maybe I'm in turn being too European, but I would be very surprised if sports arenas (apart from chess tournament halls) don't have safe storage for players' valuables. And now that there's a reason you can't bring your phone into the playing area, chess has the exact same need.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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