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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes. (Read 29034 times)
Keano
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #101 - 06/14/14 at 17:46:18
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Vass wrote on 06/13/14 at 09:14:29:
Just you wait...for the ACC police!  Grin
Look at my previous post in this thread...and you'll know what I mean!


I saw it and I completely agree with you!
  
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Vass
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #100 - 06/13/14 at 09:14:29
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Keano wrote on 06/13/14 at 08:35:50:
Still cannot see it. When I am playing well I dont blunder and a lot of my moves match computer moves.

Will someone be along to arrest me now?


Just you wait...for the ACC police!  Grin
Look at my previous post in this thread...and you'll know what I mean!
  
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Keano
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #99 - 06/13/14 at 08:35:50
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Still cannot see it. When I am playing well I dont blunder and a lot of my moves match computer moves.

Will someone be along to arrest me now?
  
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MartinC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #98 - 06/12/14 at 19:32:01
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Yes, so the pattern of play is going to be entirely different from any plausible pattern of play for someone cheating with an engine over the board.

Very big differences between someone parroting computer ideas - the plausible over the board situation - and someone looking at all the different lines, bouncing ideas off the computer etc etc.
(Well the absence of blunders might give centaurs away too, but a different pattern OTB as tranmissions errors etc etc will mean you blunder every now and then.).
  
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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #97 - 06/12/14 at 17:23:52
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MartinC wrote on 06/12/14 at 12:41:00:
I wonder if you'd want to condemn them though?


Condemn is perhaps the wrong word. Detect perhaps and what they are doing is legal for ICCF play but not for Over the Board. These are games where it is known that the probability of a chess engine being consulted during the game is reasonably high, but it isn't being done on the basis of just reproducing engine suggestions.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #96 - 06/12/14 at 16:47:45
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RdC wrote on 06/12/14 at 09:11:06:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/12/14 at 08:12:29:

Basically, the match-up rate is high, but not ridiculously high.


How many would his proposed ACC method condemn as computer cheats?


I'd have to do the math to figure out the exact limits, but the top 600 were all well above 2700 strength.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #95 - 06/12/14 at 12:41:00
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I wonder if you'd want to condemn them though? I doubt it. There's no way that anyone will be able to sit consoluting a computer in the same sort of way over the board.
(Until we get direct brain interfaces or something, but a while before that Wink)
  
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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #94 - 06/12/14 at 09:11:06
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/12/14 at 08:12:29:

Basically, the match-up rate is high, but not ridiculously high.


How many would his proposed ACC method condemn as computer cheats?
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #93 - 06/12/14 at 08:12:29
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Regan did do a study of games played using Advanced Chess or centaur chess.

Here's a link:

http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~regan/chess/fidelity/FreestyleStudy.html

Basically, the match-up rate is high, but not ridiculously high. What is incredibly low is the error rate. These can be seen by clicking on the links within the article.
  
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GeneM
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #92 - 06/11/14 at 18:57:30
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. .
RdC wrote on 06/11/14 at 15:33:17:
I'm still curious as to what the statistics are for top correspondence players in events where computer use is allowed.
Those who play at that level do not consider it adequate to simply take an engine's move or assessment at face value.

Cool question.
. .
  

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MartinC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #91 - 06/11/14 at 18:34:47
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You'd never, ever pick up just the odd computer move. Far too small a signal to find Smiley

The best feature of doing this is the negative impact - if someone does suddenly hit really good form then you know they're being checked so you can hopefully avoid worries that they're just parroting computer moves somehow.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #90 - 06/11/14 at 16:00:53
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Not sure whether we'd have caught the French players this way or not, but they were getting an engine's move, so to me it's likely that they would have come under suspicion.  We'd certainly have caught Ivanov, though. 

But RdC is right; we aren't going to catch everyone with this method, so we shouldn't bother. 
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #89 - 06/11/14 at 15:33:17
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/11/14 at 14:55:55:
Regan is talking about a sustained level of perfection over the course of an entire tournament, or several tournaments.


For many practical purposes that is a worthless test. It gives a possible means of making accusations against those who might come tooled up with a miniature camera and a shoe based computer. It doesn't tell you about someone who plays most games or even most moves legitimately but from time to time gets the odd hint or assessment from an engine during a game. So what is the purpose of monitoring every game and making potential accusations unsupported by any physical evidence?

I'm still curious as to what the statistics are for top correspondence players in events where computer use is allowed. Those who play at that level do not consider it adequate to simply take an engine's move or assessment at face value.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #88 - 06/11/14 at 14:55:55
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So many people are fixating on a single game. Regan is talking about a sustained level of perfection over the course of an entire tournament, or several tournaments. The odds of sustaining such a level over many games is very low. How low depends on the number of moves analysed. Elsewhere, he talks about analysing 200 non-database, non-trivial moves (moves where the engine's evaluation is less than +/-3.00 pawns).
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #87 - 06/11/14 at 14:34:27
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Don't think you'd have caught those French players this way either. Or some lower tech anologue. You're just relying on having 2/3 people in the loop making it all much more vunerable.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #86 - 06/11/14 at 14:24:44
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Keano wrote on 06/11/14 at 11:07:48:
Not reliable evidence, and not enough to establish probable cause, otherwise the McCanns would be arrested, but thats another story.


Depends on the jurisdiction, the judge, etc.  But it's a poor analogy, I think.

A better is probably plagiarism cases in academia.  How similar to another paper does one paper need to be before it's definitively considered to have been plagiarized?   

To answer my own rhetorical question from a few posts back, I think that if we genuinely only saw one false accusation every 20 years, and there was a just appeals process, that would be a very small price to pay to protect the game.  I am presuming, as verbiage suggested in the paper, that a pattern of engine-matching moves over a course of multiple games/events will be needed for a conviction, so that a single well-played game or a single piece of home preparation wouldn't be a problem.  I highly doubt that a well-prepared miniature is going to result in a cheating accusation.

There was absolutely no reason for Ivanov to have been allowed to continue to play for as long as he did, for instance.  That was just blatant and shameful, could have easily been stopped, and should be stopped in the future.  When someone's moves correlate something like 98% of the time with an engine's top choice, over multiple tournaments, he needs to be investigated and, possibly, banned for cheating even before the mechanism he used to cheat with is found.

Think of the French players in the 2010 Olympiad.  They had nothing on their person and no "proper evidence" would ever have been found by searching them.  More has to be done to discourage cases like this.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #85 - 06/11/14 at 11:07:48
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/10/14 at 18:57:25:
"Sniffer dogs finding a scent" is of course evidence, enough to establish probable cause and depending on the jurisdiction can result in a legal search without requiring a warrant.

Statistical evidence is evidence; the question is how strong of evidence it constitutes.


Not reliable evidence, and not enough to establish probable cause, otherwise the McCanns would be arrested, but thats another story.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #84 - 06/10/14 at 23:10:02
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/10/14 at 21:16:47:
However, it is not clear to me that anywhere near that many chess games will be played in the near future if we exclude blitz. 


There are now over 100,000 players with International ratings
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=24514748

So if each of them play an average of only 10 games a year, that's a million without trying. It varies by country, but perhaps only around 10% of "serious" players have International ratings. If that's a valid statistic, one in a million measured by games could be as frequent as once a month. It is after all FIDE and its marketing partner Agon, who claim astronomic numbers for the number of chess players in the world.

Chess servers have been busting people for unauthorised computer use for years. In the anonymity of your home, who knows what you are consulting. But OTB play by its very nature is conducted in public.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #83 - 06/10/14 at 21:16:47
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As a matter of fact, if one million chess games are played, there is a 63.2% chance that at least one of them will hit the one-in-a-million z-score at random. You don't have to be Regan to make that calculation: 1-[(1-.000001)^1000000]=.632. However, it is not clear to me that anywhere near that many chess games will be played in the near future if we exclude blitz.  I might be comfortable with a higher z-score. But this is not a criminal court. We are not putting anyone in jail, and we have to protect the game, which would become unplayable if cheating were widely regarded as prevalent.

Regan casually estimates the rating of perfect play. The notion of a "perfect rating" at first seems strange. But (supposing that chess is a draw) if an engine could draw a complete tablebase 2/3 of the time, it would win 1/3 of the points and have a rating 100-200 points lower than the tablebase. If that same engine beat the world champion a certain percentage of the time (or beat an engine that beat an engine that beat the world champion), we could calculate the rating of perfect play relative to a human player accurately. I would conjecture that we are still extremely far away an engine that could draw a tablebase regularly--especially if the tablebase were administered by a program that selected among equivalent moves in such a way as to maximize, for example, the horizon effect!

I do not believe, however, that we have any clue how a perfect tablebase would perform against current engines. Even a good model of the currently observed decrease in errors or increases in draws as ratings go up could not be extrapolated, because the instrument we are measuring with (another non-tablebase engine) is flawed to an unknown degree.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #82 - 06/10/14 at 18:57:25
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"Sniffer dogs finding a scent" is of course evidence, enough to establish probable cause and depending on the jurisdiction can result in a legal search without requiring a warrant.

Statistical evidence is evidence; the question is how strong of evidence it constitutes.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #81 - 06/10/14 at 13:53:34
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Statistical analysis can never be used as evidence imo.
It is equivalent to sniffer dogs finding a scent - humans must then find proper evidence.

In the end the only way is to search the player for electronic devices, this is how Ivanov was caught and how future cheaters will be caught.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #80 - 06/09/14 at 22:15:32
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 20:21:48:
If one innocent person is accused every 20 years and a just appeals committee handles the case (or preferably a panel of experts would look over the evidence before an automatic ban), is that acceptable? 


I would say no it isn't. I think they've underestimated the amount of chess actually played. Even if you just take the number of rated players and multiply by the number of rated games they play, I'd reckon you get well over a million games a year. So one in a million chances are nothing. If you run with some of the more extreme estimates that FIDE sometimes come out with for the number of chess players in the world, a million is "hardly any".

You might be able to detect the influence of a computer in a game. That of itself is not evidence of cheating as the whole game could have been prepared beforehand. A key point is that you shouldn't be able to cheat in over the board chess, as in principle you are always in sight of your opponent, the arbiters and spectators. Setting aside those who come tooled up with spy like gadgets, the menace is where players can slip away out of sight and communicate with an engine or a helper in private.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #79 - 06/09/14 at 20:21:48
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/09/14 at 18:44:54:
If you read the proposal closely, the ACC states that if the certainty of engine use exceeds a z-score of 4.75, (1/1million) that alone will be enough to conclude that an engine was used. (page 23 of the PDF, Annex C section 2 point D.)

http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2014/FIDE_news/ACC_draft_proposal.pdf

So yes, if the numbers are extreme enough, they alone will be enough to convict someone.


I don't think that it says that explicitly, and I think that panic is misrepresenting the proposal.  I'm not a lawyer, though.

Quote:
The ACC does not simply use either the standardly-recognized “5% threshold” or “1% threshold” for significance of p-values, but rather demands more stringent thresholds depending on the absence or presence of other evidence, the size and nature of the tournament, and the circumstances of the complaint.  The following guidelines are recommended:

A. A z-score under 2.00, commonly regarded as failure to pass the 5% threshold, may be considered a finding that statistical evidence does not support a complaint.
B. A z-score of 2.75 or greater, representing a 0.3% threshold, may constitute strong supporting evidence in the presence of physical or observational evidence.
C. Higher thresholds may be deemed needed for further stages of a FIDE-level judicial process.
D. For statistics to be considered as sole evidence for judgment, a z-score of at least 4.75 (p = .0001% or 1-in-a-million threshold) is needed, from one event or as a combined z-score from several events in close succession.

For comparison, the scientific standard for declaring new components of Nature such as the Higgs particle or gravity waves to exist is z >= 5.00. Based on the volume of recorded chess games, even if full tests were done on every game by every player, a z >= 4.75 would be observed in normal play only once every 20 years, and z >= 5.00 once in 60 years.

When a full test is conducted in response to a formal complaint, the results shall be included in the report on the complaint. A full test performed at the CA’s discretion when there is no allegation is private. Test results may also warrant overt measures taken by arbiters onsite, such as increased watch, searches, changes in game locale or environment, subject to considerations in other parts of this document.



There is also a proposal for an appeals process.  If one innocent person is accused every 20 years and a just appeals committee handles the case (or preferably a panel of experts would look over the evidence before an automatic ban), is that acceptable? 
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #78 - 06/09/14 at 18:44:54
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 17:47:34:
RdC wrote on 06/09/14 at 16:53:10:
If a statistical method were ever used entirely on its own to ban a player, I think there would be serious legal challenges and the "confidential" statistical method would have to be exposed to external scrutiny. That would show whether it satisfied the obvious tests of not labelling someone from before the computer era as having used a computer and being able to correctly identify games played wholly or partly by engines.



I don't think that anyone is talking about that.  The statistical analysis will be a piece of evidence, and likely no-one will ever have their games scrutinized unless they exhibit suspicious behavior to begin with.


If you read the proposal closely, the ACC states that if the certainty of engine use exceeds a z-score of 4.75, (1/1million) that alone will be enough to conclude that an engine was used. (page 23 of the PDF, Annex C section 2 point D.)

http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2014/FIDE_news/ACC_draft_proposal.pdf

So yes, if the numbers are extreme enough, they alone will be enough to convict someone.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #77 - 06/09/14 at 18:38:36
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 17:47:34:
I don't think that anyone is talking about that.  The statistical analysis will be a piece of evidence, and likely no-one will ever have their games scrutinized unless they exhibit suspicious behavior to begin with.


The problem is that this is not what the Committee are proposing.

The draft proposals can be read at
http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2014/FIDE_news/ACC_draft_proposal.pdf

On page 2, they propose an anti cheating committee which wants powers to
ii) perform sample checks on players and tournaments both on-site and remotely

and on page 3
The Committee recommends the implementation of a FIDE Internet-based Game Screening Tool for pre-scanning games and identifying potential instances of cheating, together with the adoption of a full-testing procedure in cases of complaints.

On page 5, you can read

With a view to creating a sufficient unbiased database of games and to make statistical analysis even more accurate, all games played after 1.1.2012 are subject to potential screening
by the ACC.

  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #76 - 06/09/14 at 18:17:28
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MartinC wrote on 06/08/14 at 07:53:40:
Why only 250? You're talking about storing 100+ mobile phones, many with replacement value of 5/600 pounds.....
(And a mass of fairly crucial personal data for a lot of people too.).



fwiw: i just checked with the insurance company we use to write policy on tournament here (we usually have from 100-500 people).

This phone policy can be had for three days for a rider of $107.00 US currency.

Erie Insurance Co.

  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #75 - 06/09/14 at 17:47:34
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RdC wrote on 06/09/14 at 16:53:10:
If a statistical method were ever used entirely on its own to ban a player, I think there would be serious legal challenges and the "confidential" statistical method would have to be exposed to external scrutiny. That would show whether it satisfied the obvious tests of not labelling someone from before the computer era as having used a computer and being able to correctly identify games played wholly or partly by engines.



I don't think that anyone is talking about that.  The statistical analysis will be a piece of evidence, and likely no-one will ever have their games scrutinized unless they exhibit suspicious behavior to begin with.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #74 - 06/09/14 at 16:53:10
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/09/14 at 16:32:44:
There are going to be logistical problems with scanning in the game scores, and other issues. I think the issue of where the cell phone is kept is a very minor one compared to that one.


As a matter of routine, many tournaments use duplicate score-sheets and have someone inputting them to create a pgn file of the games. If nothing else, it helps tournament publicity if the games are published on the web and in TWIC. So that doesn't introduce anything new apart from a need to find a volunteer willing to do the inputting.

The real problem is that someone remote to tournaments is asking for the power to label players as cheats based on no more than an analysis of the moves played.

If a statistical method were ever used entirely on its own to ban a player, I think there would be serious legal challenges and the "confidential" statistical method would have to be exposed to external scrutiny. That would show whether it satisfied the obvious tests of not labelling someone from before the computer era as having used a computer and being able to correctly identify games played wholly or partly by engines.

Given that ICCF permits computer use, or at least doesn't outlaw it, scrutiny of recent correspondence games would throw up additional insights.
  
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Reply #73 - 06/09/14 at 16:32:44
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And that's where the groundbreaking news that FIDE will start to use statistical testing to uncover computer cheats comes in.

I'm flabbergasted that such a conservative organization as FIDE would go from virtually no method of catching cheats to creating an Anti-Cheating Committee with the power to analyse every game played. This is a huge step. I think it's in the right direction, but it really will change how tournaments are run.

There are going to be logistical problems with scanning in the game scores, and other issues. I think the issue of where the cell phone is kept is a very minor one compared to that one.
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #72 - 06/09/14 at 14:43:00
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MartinC wrote on 06/09/14 at 14:29:12:
Definitely getting too obsessed about them Smiley Anyone who's premeditating cheating in a halfway competent manner will use something that's much harder to detect than staring at their smartphone!

Worries about the threat of casual cheating perhaps. The other thing of course is that smartwatches/ wearables are coming/even arrived. So do we ban watches next?


Well, a determined cheat will find a way.  And even a non-determined cheat can have a smart phone on their person and not turn it into the organizers (are we going to search every person)?  Or leave it with their friend who they meet in the bathroom, or just hide it in the bathroom a la the handgun in The Godfather...
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #71 - 06/09/14 at 14:29:12
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Definitely getting too obsessed about them Smiley Anyone who's premeditating cheating in a halfway competent manner will use something that's much harder to detect than staring at their smartphone!

Worries about the threat of casual cheating perhaps. The other thing of course is that smartwatches/ wearables are coming/even arrived. So do we ban watches next?
  
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #70 - 06/09/14 at 14:18:39
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dfan wrote on 06/09/14 at 12:41:55:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 01:03:58:
I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced.

American here. I don't have a car and have already checked out of my hotel room by the time the final two rounds in a typical weekend tournament are played. I thought it was supposed to be good to be part of the 1%!


If you stayed the night at the hotel, the vast majority of hotels would hold your phone for you for free if you asked at the lobby, even in a safe-box.  I concede your point that it wouldn't always be easy or convenient for players, though.

I think that you will discourage more tournament organizers by requiring them to provide an additional service (how much insurance should they carry?  What standard of locking mechanism?) than you will discourage players with a simple ban.  If a simple ban were imposed, local players and tournament organizers can figure out their own solutions.  Additionally a tournament director that gets 100 players, for instance, will not need to be responsible for 100 $500+ pieces of equipment; the majority of players would find their own means of securing their private property (don't people always do this when traveling anyway?), and it would likely be sufficient if the tournament director could lock up about ten phones or so.  I doubt that sort of arrangement would discourage many TDs or players.

Edit: I also think that worrying about what to do with our cell phones (haven't we become far too obsessed with these things?) is obfuscating the real issue and point of the thread.
  
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Reply #69 - 06/09/14 at 12:41:55
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 01:03:58:
I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced.

American here. I don't have a car and have already checked out of my hotel room by the time the final two rounds in a typical weekend tournament are played. I thought it was supposed to be good to be part of the 1%!
  
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Reply #68 - 06/09/14 at 09:16:16
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MartinC wrote on 06/09/14 at 08:32:19:
Some countries very worried about it all, others in Europe having obvious problems with making that sort of ban work at all.


I suspect in England, we won't be changing the existing tournament rules. Namely that you can have a phone, tablet or laptop with you, but it must remain completely switched off for the entire game. You are only penalised with the loss of the game if the device makes a noise or you are caught with it switched on for non-chess purposes.

Many events aren't FIDE rated, so it becomes an ECF decision as to whether this is acceptable for grading. Tournament organisers control a significant minority of ECF voting rights.  As far as FIDE rating is concerned, that's where you could get a fight if FIDE won't accept games under those circumstances for ratings and Norms. For weekend tournaments anyway, it isn't mandatory from the entrant's viewpoint that they are FIDE rated. The crunch is likely to be the 4NCL which extends all the way from GMs to club players with 1600 ratings and can offer Norm possibilities to high scoring players.
  
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Reply #67 - 06/09/14 at 09:13:16
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 19:29:36:
Well, football needs storage of clothes and presumably safe storage of valuables. Chess now needs storage of electronic means of communications only. That's a milder requirement and should be entirely possible. It only seems a big difference because we're going from nothing to something.


At least in Nordic events I think there's already a practice of people handing in their phones to the arbiter - in one series match one guy handed it in because he had no idea how to turn the thing off! Smiley

So, when the number of handed in phones get too many, some kind of storage furniture does make sense (as long as it has lockable compartments the club/tm/arbiter doesn't need to take on more responsibility than that), and it shouldn't be too much of a cost - considering that clubs and tournaments are already supposed to provide digital clocks, boards, pieces, tables and chairs...

Maybe the US will come up with a different way to handle it, as many tournaments there seem to rely on players bringing their own boards and clocks - which seem to open a whole new can of worms for ways to cheat, but I suppose you already have ways to handle that...
  
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Reply #66 - 06/09/14 at 08:32:19
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The idea seems to be that the rule will allow the arbiters will systemically do nothing so long as you're not obvious about it.

I agree that this seems entirely silly, but apparently the politics wouldn't have allowed something else.

Some countries very worried about it all, others in Europe having obvious problems with making that sort of ban work at all.
  
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Reply #65 - 06/09/14 at 05:38:25
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Stigma wrote on 06/09/14 at 03:42:52:
But I guess clubs could be less strict on the no phones-policy than bigger tournaments.

Fide is clear from 1st of July that phones are forbidden in the playing zone for rated tournaments. The only thing they leave open, is the penalty. Now if somebody after several violations + warnings still brings his phone to the playing zone then what else than exclusion an arbiter can do, despite the type of tournament? If an arbiter doesn't react after several warnings then the arbiter can't be taken serious anymore.

Anyway many people already told me that they stop playing if somebody forces them to not have a mobile in the playing zone while no storage place will be available.
  
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Reply #64 - 06/09/14 at 03:42:52
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/09/14 at 01:03:58:
I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced. 

In fact, most nicer hotels or conference centers (where many tournaments are held) have safes that you can check valuables into for free, anyway. 

99% sounds very high to me. I don't have a car, and I frequently choose some other, less expensive accomodation a bit further from the playing hall; that way I can often afford two tournaments "for the price of one".

Sure, many tournaments are played in nice hotels, but sports halls, town halls, and schools are also commonly used in Europe.

If safe storage proves too difficult or costly for organizers, maybe they could at least provide a phone for players to use after their game has finished, to get in touch with family or friends and schedule dinner, analysis sessions etc. Payphones are mostly a thing of the past.

This would still be inconvenient for someone coming straight from work and going home after the game using public transport, walking or cycling; a fairly typical club chess situation. But I guess clubs could be less strict on the no phones-policy than bigger tournaments.
« Last Edit: 06/09/14 at 08:44:04 by Stigma »  

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Reply #63 - 06/09/14 at 01:03:58
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RdC wrote on 06/08/14 at 22:22:40:
They would leave them at home. If this wasn't possible, they would decline to enter the tournament or refuse invitations to play in a league competition. It would be likely to vary by country, but how many organisers would find their competitions viable if their entries dropped by say 30%?


In that case, I presume the organizers (or even the players) would come up with their own solution, i.e. some kind of cloakroom or whatever.  But mandating that ALL tournaments provide secure cell phone storage for players!?!?  Why??  I don't get it. 

I certainly don't consider myself conservative at all, but maybe I'm too American to see the value in mandating that all tournaments provide cell phone storage.  I'd think that you'd lose far more events in that way because tournament directors couldn't provide that (or have to raise entrance fees substantially) than you would lose players who didn't want to leave their cell phone in their car or at home.  I admit that in Europe things might be different, as many more people would use public transportation, but I'd guess that 99% of Americans would either leave it in their hotel room or lock the phone in their car.  No players would be inconvenienced. 

In fact, most nicer hotels or conference centers (where many tournaments are held) have safes that you can check valuables into for free, anyway. 

Anyhow that's my perspective, perhaps a survey would clear things up regarding how many players would boycott an event, but I don't see the need for FIDE to require that tournament organizers provide for a player's personal property.
  
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Reply #62 - 06/08/14 at 22:22:40
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 20:27:23:
The vast majority of players would figure out what to do with their phones.


They would leave them at home. If this wasn't possible, they would decline to enter the tournament or refuse invitations to play in a league competition. It would be likely to vary by country, but how many organisers would find their competitions viable if their entries dropped by say 30%?
  
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Reply #61 - 06/08/14 at 20:27:23
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 19:29:36:
Well, football needs storage of clothes and presumably safe storage of valuables. Chess now needs storage of electronic means of communications only. That's a milder requirement and should be entirely possible. It only seems a big difference because we're going from nothing to something.


But chess would require it for orders of magnitude more people, not just the 15 players on a basketball team.  And I can't believe that we can compare the venue for an open tournament to the facilities at the Rose Bowl or Madison Square Garden or the like.  Requiring tournament organizers provide secure phone storage sounds like a death knell for tournaments; penalizing or forbidding players from bringing them into the playing hall does not.  The vast majority of players would figure out what to do with their phones.
  
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Reply #60 - 06/08/14 at 19:29:36
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Well, football needs storage of clothes and presumably safe storage of valuables. Chess now needs storage of electronic means of communications only. That's a milder requirement and should be entirely possible. It only seems a big difference because we're going from nothing to something.
  

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Reply #59 - 06/08/14 at 19:22:56
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 19:16:51:
And now that there's a reason you can't bring your phone into the playing area, chess has the exact same need.


Chess doesn't require use of a changing room with the obvious need to store normal clothes, so that is something of a major difference.

Mobile phones and other electronic devices are harmless and useless for cheating if switched off for the entire duration of the game. The question really is whether chess players can be trusted. In general, players are trusted not to discuss games during play with their coach, members of their club etc. or to look things up in the books on sale at a bookstall, so do electronic devices and the possibilities of consulting them introduce any new principles?
  
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Reply #58 - 06/08/14 at 19:17:12
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 18:12:26:
But a requirement seems ridiculous.


If you were running a tournament or league under the FIDE Laws of Chess and those rules said that players would lose if you have a mobile phone or other electronic device in their possession, what are your options?

You could follow the strict letter of the law and risk no-one turning up, or devise some means whereby mobile phones could be placed out of use for the duration of the game.
  
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Reply #57 - 06/08/14 at 19:16:51
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 18:12:26:
Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 16:11:05:
I don't understand why a smart guy like you doesn't understand the fuss. Smiley


I'm probably too American but I don't see why an organizer should be required to protect someone's personal property.  Would it be a nice service to the players, and perhaps attract more?  Of course.  But a requirement seems ridiculous.

It just occured to me that other sports have more or less the same issue, and have had it for ages. You don't run around with your phone or your wallet on a track, a basketball court or a football pitch.

I haven't really been playing sports and maybe I'm in turn being too European, but I would be very surprised if sports arenas (apart from chess tournament halls) don't have safe storage for players' valuables. And now that there's a reason you can't bring your phone into the playing area, chess has the exact same need.
  

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Reply #56 - 06/08/14 at 18:12:26
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Stigma wrote on 06/08/14 at 16:11:05:
I don't understand why a smart guy like you doesn't understand the fuss. Smiley


I'm probably too American but I don't see why an organizer should be required to protect someone's personal property.  Would it be a nice service to the players, and perhaps attract more?  Of course.  But a requirement seems ridiculous.
  
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Reply #55 - 06/08/14 at 17:06:56
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MartinC wrote on 06/08/14 at 16:52:13:
(Where less severe can seemingly mean nothing.).


It can be difficult to get arbiters to confirm this.

Organisers seem to be carrying on as if nothing has changed. The recently published entry form for a UK Congress due to take place in October notes :-

Players entering the tournament agree to abide by the FIDE Laws of Chess and the decisions of the controllers, which will be final. , but also

A player whose mobile phone sounds during a game will forfeit the game.

which clearly implies that there isn't a penalty just for possessing a phone or electronic device.

If you have a rule which says that you lose if you have a mobile phone in your possession, why will potential players not vote with their feet and decline to enter competitions with such rules?




  
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Reply #54 - 06/08/14 at 16:52:13
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The 'fudge' to note in that chessbase competition is: "The rules of a competition may specify a different, less severe, penalty."
(Where less severe can seemingly mean nothing.).
  
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Reply #53 - 06/08/14 at 16:27:24
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/08/14 at 15:53:53:
According to the new rules, we won't be able to take cell phones into the playing area anymore. That solves the issue of cell phones.


I take issue with ChessBase on at least one point

Our wishes have been met: the FIDE Laws of Chess that are expected to enter into force on 1 July 2014 introduce new provisions explicitly forbidding the use of external information during a game, and specify methods that may be used to inforce them. Specifically:

    11.3.a During play the players are forbidden to use any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyze any game on another chessboard.


The wording of 11.3.a has always been there in some form or other. Admittedly ChessBase published a rather idiotic article that attempted to deny this.

  
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Reply #52 - 06/08/14 at 16:11:05
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/08/14 at 15:48:13:
I don't understand the fuss about storing cell phones.

I don't understand why a smart guy like you doesn't understand the fuss. Smiley

People have come to depend on their cell phones for communication, maybe even their calendars, tickets for public transport can be on apps etc. etc. Some players may come to the game directly from work, or live in some hostel or apartment instead of a hotel, take a bus or train or bike instead of a car... I've often done last-minute preparation on the bus or tram on my way to the game! Remember that ideally the same rules should apply to all games, from world championships to evening games at the local club.

There are of course no rules that require organizers to provide safe storage at present, but I don't see why there couldn't be. Not being able to bring a cell phone along would be an inconvenience to many players with no intention of cheating.
  

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Reply #51 - 06/08/14 at 15:53:53
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I haven't seen this link mentioned yet, so I'll provide it:

http://en.chessbase.com/post/fide-on-anti-cheating-plans-and-proposals-3

According to the new rules, we won't be able to take cell phones into the playing area anymore. That solves the issue of cell phones.
  
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Reply #50 - 06/08/14 at 15:48:13
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I don't understand the fuss about storing cell phones.  A tournament organizer is free to ban cell phones from the playing hall without providing any means of storage, aren't they?  Players can leave them at home, in their hotel room, with the front desk of the hotel, in their car, with their spouse...I don't see how it's the tournament director's responsibility.  Something like a cloak room would be a nice service, but certainly not required.
  
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Reply #49 - 06/08/14 at 14:09:09
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TalJechin wrote on 06/08/14 at 10:58:03:
One idea could be that clubs and tournaments invest in some kind of shelf with lots of small lockable compartments - many schools have something similar for storing valuables during gym-class.

Absolutely agree with this. Sounds like a solution that doesn't have to get too expensive. And with this in place there's no excuse for having an electronic device switched on or off in or around the playing hall aymore - the rules could simply specify that if you're caught with one, you lose.
  

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Reply #48 - 06/08/14 at 11:33:24
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/08/14 at 08:50:21:
I simply don't take my phone to the tournament hall any more, why take the risk of it making a noise, or of someone accusing you that it went off (which has happened to others recently)?
A lot of players I spoke to at the Top12 last week also leave their phones in their hotel room.
The only problem is that when we went for our team meal after the match most of the players 'had' to get their phones first and check on all their messages.

As a professional chessplayer you normally get a hotel room and often even transport for free. Last years I never had a hotel so returned every day home often several hours driving.

Almost 10 years ago I played also in the Top12 and I fully agree that the hotelroom is in 99% sufficient to store the phones. Once I played in Paris and the hotel was at the other side of the town. As my future wife accompanied me at the trip (Paris so no surprise), it was just natural to keep the mobile with me.

We really have to make a distinction between professional and amateur chess. How to make an agreement when both players meet each other, is not easy, especially if there is no (extra) budget.

What I also often notice is that big clubs are able to pay their professional players but have nothing left for appropriate accommodation. I am today only playing in a pure amateur club and we have in most cases a much better accommodation than those clubs with their professional players.
  
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Reply #47 - 06/08/14 at 10:58:03
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One idea could be that clubs and tournaments invest in some kind of shelf with lots of small lockable compartments - many schools have something similar for storing valuables during gym-class.
  
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Reply #46 - 06/08/14 at 10:26:44
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Hotel rooms fine when possible yes, although often not. Cars are rather dodgier for the obvious reasons. Yes hide in boots, but once people know this is what chess players often do..... A rather obvious public target really.

Or if going by public transport, just no option. Public phones vanished by now of course and not really sensible to be without some means of contact.
  
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Reply #45 - 06/08/14 at 08:58:08
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/08/14 at 08:50:21:
A lot of players I spoke to at the Top12 last week also leave their phones in their hotel room.


That presumes you have a convenient hotel room. For many amateur players, they will be staying at home and commuting, in some cases after work. But even where you have a hotel room, you still have a problem with your luggage if you are unable to reach your hotel before play starts or if you are checking out on the morning of the last round or rounds.
  
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Reply #44 - 06/08/14 at 08:50:21
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I simply don't take my phone to the tournament hall any more, why take the risk of it making a noise, or of someone accusing you that it went off (which has happened to others recently)?
A lot of players I spoke to at the Top12 last week also leave their phones in their hotel room.
The only problem is that when we went for our team meal after the match most of the players 'had' to get their phones first and check on all their messages.
  
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Reply #43 - 06/08/14 at 07:53:40
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Why only 250? You're talking about storing 100+ mobile phones, many with replacement value of 5/600 pounds.....
(And a mass of fairly crucial personal data for a lot of people too.).
  
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Reply #42 - 06/08/14 at 01:49:04
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/07/14 at 09:26:34:
I was told once that tournaments couldn't take people's phones because they don't have the insurance to protect them against claims that a phone got lost or damaged. Otherwise, I have no problem surrendering my phone at the start of a round.



No doubt but an insurance rider for this for a tournament would cost about $250  The organizer is already having to foot the bill for liability and personal injury insurance and this rider would be very small (most likely a lot less than I estimate).

So I feel that (insurance)is a real red herring here.

There is always the answer that seems true and then the answer that is true.

A realer reason is that organizer do not want to offend people and lose their entry fee.
  
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Reply #41 - 06/07/14 at 11:42:55
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MartinC wrote on 06/06/14 at 21:04:06:
(The UK national teams for instance imposed nothing being switched on in the playing area.).


That is, or possibly was, the standard for all UK tournaments. Many UK leagues or clubs were prepared to be more lenient, not about using the phone whilst the game was in progress, but  in not penalising someone who had forgotten to totally switch it off, with the loss of the game.

The FIDE anti-cheating committee have come up with the bizarre idea for "amateur" tournaments that it's OK to have a switched off phone or device in your possession as long as it isn't hidden in your luggage or a pocket.

Outside of the USA, offering large prizes to weaker players is uncommon. It's not really surprising that can tempt dubious or unethical behaviour or even outright cheating. From a UK perspective the CCA guidelines miss out a very obvious point, being that there shouldn't be an expectation in the first place that you can use a phone to receive or even send messages whilst playing.
  
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Reply #40 - 06/07/14 at 09:26:34
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I was told once that tournaments couldn't take people's phones because they don't have the insurance to protect them against claims that a phone got lost or damaged. Otherwise, I have no problem surrendering my phone at the start of a round.
  
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Reply #39 - 06/07/14 at 08:44:47
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I guess this would just work like the cloakroom at a nightclub. Hand in yer stuff at the door, get a ticket, sign for it.
Dancing optional.


MartinC wrote on 06/06/14 at 21:04:06:
Turned up on the English chess forum that and iirc it did get passed - nothing electronic in the playing area at all allowed - but with very considerable ambiguity as to the punishment.

Actually sufficiently so to allow for it to be nothing if that's desired.

Some sort of slightly messed up compromise to keep worried people from sundry countries happy while also making it possible to hold events in Europe etc.
(The UK national teams for instance imposed nothing being switched on in the playing area.).

So probably no big change, but you'll have to check the details of entry forms.

  
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Reply #38 - 06/06/14 at 21:04:06
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Turned up on the English chess forum that and iirc it did get passed - nothing electronic in the playing area at all allowed - but with very considerable ambiguity as to the punishment.

Actually sufficiently so to allow for it to be nothing if that's desired.

Some sort of slightly messed up compromise to keep worried people from sundry countries happy while also making it possible to hold events in Europe etc.
(The UK national teams for instance imposed nothing being switched on in the playing area.).

So probably no big change, but you'll have to check the details of entry forms.
  
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Reply #37 - 06/06/14 at 19:58:00
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Someone on facebook mentioned that Fide is about to (or already has?) change the cell-phone rule, instead of losing if it rings, phones won't be allowed at all.

Anyone know if this is true? It sounds more logical, but also impractical...

  
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Reply #36 - 06/06/14 at 19:13:44
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The big american opens with (I believe?) big prizes for the low sections are certainly horribly exposed to cheating. Very much more so than higher level events.
  
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Reply #35 - 06/06/14 at 18:55:53
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Keano wrote on 06/06/14 at 14:45:26:
They can disagree all they like, I stand by what I said.


In other words, it's not a big problem to you.  Noted.
  
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Reply #34 - 06/06/14 at 17:17:16
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/06/14 at 15:14:20:
I've seen Russians chatting openly with each other about their games in local tournaments, thinking that nobody could understand them.

You need to make a difference between Russian speaking people and Russians. It is not the same. I can know as I am married with a Russian. Smiley
However I have to admit that the situation which you describe is unfortunately familiar to me: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/07/afgesproken-resultaat-in-open-gent-of.h...
It was quite shocking to see just after the resignation how the loser in a happy mood was showing to his opponent how he could win quicker. They spoke Russian assuming nobody could understand. I've never seen a grandmaster so happy after losing in the last round with white in just 26 moves with mate.  Organizers didn't dare to act as there was no firm proof and neither they wanted to make bad publicity to upset their sponsor.
  
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Reply #33 - 06/06/14 at 16:00:18
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I believe there is a lot more cheating going on than some people wish to acknowledge.

I think it is rampant in u/2000 sections in which money is on the line.  In the USA there have been numerous people caught even down on the scholastic level.

The USA largest tournament organizer now creating new rules for their tournaments regarding electronic devices and at recent Chicago Open they would not allow people to take electronic devices into bathrooms.

Not sure how effective it really is since people were still going up to their rooms while their game was in progress and I even saw one person in the Skittles room analysing a game while their own game was in progress in the main hall!

There was also someone with a laptop running chess analysis sitting in the main hall (in the back away from the boards, but still) and it took TD's almost 30 minutes to realize this!

here is link to CCA new electronics policy.

http://www.chesstour.com/devices.htm
  
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Reply #32 - 06/06/14 at 15:29:21
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/06/14 at 15:14:20:
I've seen Russians chatting openly with each other about their games in local tournaments, thinking that nobody could understand them.


That's where you need a hard line arbiter to tell them to stop or risk being defaulted. As the Laws of Chess for over the board play forbid you to consult about the game in progress, if you are talking to someone in a language not understood by the arbiter or other players, an arbiter could justify a hard line.
  
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Reply #31 - 06/06/14 at 15:14:20
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I've seen Russians chatting openly with each other about their games in local tournaments, thinking that nobody could understand them. But yeah, today's occasional cheat will be very difficult to catch.
  
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Reply #30 - 06/06/14 at 15:06:47
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/06/14 at 10:27:37:
Nowadays the temptation to nip into the toilets and quickly analyse a critical position with Fritz on your phone is surely too great for the dishonest, and very difficult to detect.


It's really not that difficult to notice that your opponent isn't present at the Board or visible somewhere in the playing area, particularly when it's their move. It isn't a cheating accusation as such, but players should be warned that being invisible for much of the game might be regarded as dubious behaviour and invite accusations.
  
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Reply #29 - 06/06/14 at 14:45:26
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They can disagree all they like, I stand by what I said.
  
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Reply #28 - 06/06/14 at 14:20:08
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Keano wrote on 06/04/14 at 16:28:05:
As I said before, cheating is not a big problem in chess, and what little there is of it we will eliminate in due course. Lifetime bans should be implemented in the meantime to make sure it is simply not worth risking for anybody.


Nigel Short and Morozevich--and perhaps, privately, the distinguished members of Anand's "human cluster"-- might disagree. Not that I favor the creation of a chess NSA.
  
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Reply #27 - 06/06/14 at 14:15:00
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Keano wrote on 06/04/14 at 16:28:05:
As I said before, cheating is not a big problem in chess...


I don't think that we know the magnitude of the problem.  It may be almost nonexistent at local clubs where there is no money on the line and no chance for norms, but at larger events?  I don't think anyone knows, though we have had some high profile cases, so it certainly exists.
  
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Reply #26 - 06/06/14 at 11:46:32
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 06/06/14 at 10:27:37:
Keano wrote on 06/02/14 at 14:33:14:
In short, cheating is not a big problem in chess despite what you read in chessbase or other places.


Actually, cheating in chess is much more common than you would think. I've seen literally hundreds of cases since I started playing chess professionally! However, these were almost all before iPhones and the like existed; arranging games and asking advice from strong players were the two most likely problems.
Nowadays the temptation to nip into the toilets and quickly analyse a critical position with Fritz on your phone is surely too great for the dishonest, and very difficult to detect.

Then why do we only start to react today on the many cheating cases? I fully agree that cheating has always existed but what is now different that we do have to take drastic measurements? Could it be because now the top players are threatened by the cheating which wasn't the case before?
  
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Reply #25 - 06/06/14 at 11:42:25
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Not that hard to catch on the ground really? Some people have been of course.

Certainly easier than detecting people asking for advice Smiley
  
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Reply #24 - 06/06/14 at 10:27:37
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Keano wrote on 06/02/14 at 14:33:14:
In short, cheating is not a big problem in chess despite what you read in chessbase or other places.


Actually, cheating in chess is much more common than you would think. I've seen literally hundreds of cases since I started playing chess professionally! However, these were almost all before iPhones and the like existed; arranging games and asking advice from strong players were the two most likely problems.
Nowadays the temptation to nip into the toilets and quickly analyse a critical position with Fritz on your phone is surely too great for the dishonest, and very difficult to detect.
  
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Reply #23 - 06/05/14 at 07:06:15
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Keano wrote on 06/04/14 at 16:28:05:
I think something like this will lead to problems, especially if put into the hands of over zealous administrators.

Soon chess will catch up and have some type of scanner for arbiters to check for electronic activity I reckon. For the moment we need to apply common sense. Everybody could see Ivanov was cheating, and he had a big hump on his back under his jumper. He was a very bright cheater in one way but very dumb in another in that he got caught and arose so much suspicion in the first place.

As I said before, cheating is not a big problem in chess, and what little there is of it we will eliminate in due course. Lifetime bans should be implemented in the meantime to make sure it is simply not worth risking for anybody.

The ways and means are known from time immemorial..
If you want to gain command of a certain activity, just pick up an inherent problem, exaggerate it well and then become the driving force of the powers that can deal with it. In order to take hold of the whole community, make new authorities, create 'special forces' and...voila - the world is yours!
Nothing new under the sun.  Roll Eyes
  
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Reply #22 - 06/05/14 at 05:59:16
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GeneM wrote on 06/03/14 at 05:57:52:
. .
Moving this topic-thread from General Chess was not a good decision, and I don't like it.
. .



Seconded.

The thread is not about computers, it is about cheating in chess and belongs in the forum it was originally posted.

Another point:  it would be very much in the vested interest of certain organizers to be the ones supporting cheating efforts.

Cheating will never be eliminated, in chess, or in life.  Cheating is a part of every single competitive event humans have ever concocted and historically people breaking rules have always been one step ahead of those enforcing them.



  
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Reply #21 - 06/04/14 at 16:28:05
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I think something like this will lead to problems, especially if put into the hands of over zealous administrators.

Soon chess will catch up and have some type of scanner for arbiters to check for electronic activity I reckon. For the moment we need to apply common sense. Everybody could see Ivanov was cheating, and he had a big hump on his back under his jumper. He was a very bright cheater in one way but very dumb in another in that he got caught and arose so much suspicion in the first place.

As I said before, cheating is not a big problem in chess, and what little there is of it we will eliminate in due course. Lifetime bans should be implemented in the meantime to make sure it is simply not worth risking for anybody.
  
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Reply #20 - 06/04/14 at 13:33:58
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Statisticians have already done tests to see how play deteriorates in blitz and fast chess time controls. I don't have the links at my fingertips, but their conclusions were that playing blitz chess dropped a player's ability about as much as playing blindfold chess does. I remember the number 200 rating points being mentioned. I'm sure that if you are interested, you can find these articles for yourself.

There's also the principle of monotonicity. Statisticians have also shown that engines tend to agree with each other in deeper and deeper ply. So even if the cheater is using an old engine, they will still be caught using Regan's method. The article does address this point.
  
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Reply #19 - 06/04/14 at 06:53:10
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Bibs wrote on 06/03/14 at 23:51:17:
Let us avoid, shall we.


As far as I can see, there are those who want a license to trawl through pgn files looking for supposed cheaters regardless of what any witnesses might say about the circumstances of the game and regardless of any connection with the event and the players in it. I don't think they should be given such a license.

The technique of statistically trying to evaluate move quality may be interesting and valid but I would rather it were used for training or to test how much fast time controls can affect the accuracy of play. For that matter it would be fascinating to see whether it could identify on a blind test, games known to have been played where one or both players was a computer engine. A cynic says that won't be published as if it cannot identify known engine play, particularly by older and less competent engines, that discredits it as a detector of engine use. For that matter, there have been a handful of exhibition "advance chess" games. Could these be detected alongside normal games by the same players?
  
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Reply #18 - 06/03/14 at 23:51:17
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hicetnunc wrote on 06/03/14 at 16:17:40:
"Witchfinder" is a very misleading and intellectually dishonest term. You can't compare protecting chess from cheating with the dark practices this word conjures up...  Angry


I do agree that Name Calling is unhelpful, and a bit school playground. Yes, RdC, we are familiar with the usual stock of rhetorical tools.
Let us avoid, shall we.
Perhaps RdC is a fan of cult horror, though this is probably best avoided as it just is not very good at all...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchfinder_General_(film)
  
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Reply #17 - 06/03/14 at 22:42:40
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GeneM wrote on 06/03/14 at 05:57:52:
. .
Moving this topic-thread from General Chess was not a good decision, and I don't like it.
. .


This section is called "Chess and Computers". This thread is about chess and computers. It is now where it belongs.
  
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Reply #16 - 06/03/14 at 16:17:40
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"Witchfinder" is a very misleading and intellectually dishonest term. You can't compare protecting chess from cheating with the dark practices this word conjures up...  Angry
  

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Reply #15 - 06/03/14 at 16:01:34
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Bibs wrote on 06/03/14 at 13:19:29:
I
Early days, but people are trying to introduce measures to stop cheating. Are such efforts not to be encouraged? Or would you prefer to let the likes of Ivanov just romp home in his Funky Chessy Shoes?


In Over the Board chess it is forbidden to consult external sources of information. That's in the Laws of Chess and always has been and I suggest that in the tournament or match environment with witnesses, players respect this. The difficulty is not with those who would come tooled up with secret equipment since they are obviously guilty once you establish their method, but with more occasional cheaters, who would consult an engine for help during a game.

So with the main danger being smart phones, you need to establish how far you go to ensure that such a phone is both switched off at the start of the game and remains switched of for the duration of the game. For that matter establishing stronger conventions on when it was OK to be out of sight of opponents and arbiters would be useful. There's a constraint that amateur players will be playing before and after other activities, such as work, for which they may have a legitimate need to be in possession of a phone. The danger being that if you totally ban phones, you've banned chess competitions as well because no-one or not enough players are willing or able to play under those conditions.

I see nothing in the Witchfinder proposals that recognises that players prepare with computer engines and that playing strength can be variable.
  
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Reply #14 - 06/03/14 at 13:19:29
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It is not just 'moves' though, which is suggestive of the odd few moves. It is the unusual frequency of matching with computer moves.
It is not just playing above rating either, that happens plenty.
And I am sure Regan is fully aware that softwares are used to generate theory.
Early days, but people are trying to introduce measures to stop cheating. Are such efforts not to be encouraged? Or would you prefer to let the likes of Ivanov just romp home in his Funky Chessy Shoes?

  
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Reply #13 - 06/03/14 at 08:11:07
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/03/14 at 04:53:51:
  I'm glad that someone is doing something about this potential problem, personally, so long as he doesn't have the authority of an Inquisitor. 


That's not how it reads and if it isn't the intention, they should reword it. The ACP/FIDE proposal appears to be that notwithstanding the players, arbiters and organisers on the ground at a tournament being satisfied as to the integrity of play, that someone using a remote computer can express doubt about a game or series of games because a player is playing moves above their rating.
  
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Reply #12 - 06/03/14 at 05:57:52
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. .
Moving this topic-thread from General Chess was not a good decision, and I don't like it.
. .
  

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Reply #11 - 06/03/14 at 04:53:51
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RdC wrote on 06/02/14 at 23:30:29:
...when a tournament director becomes suspicious for one reason or another and wants to take action, Regan is the first man to get a call.



Seems like people are a little too paranoid, in my opinion.  I'm glad that someone is doing something about this potential problem, personally, so long as he doesn't have the authority of an Inquisitor.
  
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Reply #10 - 06/02/14 at 23:30:29
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/02/14 at 22:52:35:
Ken is looking for statistical evidence, not starting a witch hunt.


There's an article on the USCF website at
http://www.uschess.org/content/view/12677/763/

In this I read

The current anti-cheating regulations of the world chess federation (FIDE) are too outdated to include guidance about disciplining illegal computer assistance, so Regan himself monitors most major events in real-time, including open events, and when a tournament director becomes suspicious for one reason or another and wants to take action, Regan is the first man to get a call.

That reads to me that he's appointed himself as the witch-finder.

Certainly you can test whether a player's moves match those of an engine. You might infer that the player consulted a computer engine. That's as far as you can go in the absence of physical evidence or observation from the scene as there's a reasonable doubt that it was all just preparation. It is not cheating to consult a computer engine before the game has started. I see no recognition of that in the Chess Life article.



  
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Reply #9 - 06/02/14 at 22:52:35
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This is a bit silly, we've had this argument before (mostly in the Ivanov thread).  What does "valid accusation" even mean?  It's not a guilty sentence, is it?  Perhaps "probable cause" is a better term.

Anyhow as with everything in life outside of logic and mathematics, we accumulate evidence to support our assertions.  I'd think that what Ken Regan describes could constitute evidence of cheating.  Enough to warrant a guilty verdict?  Depends on the case, I suppose, but lacking any other evidence perhaps not.  Ken is looking for statistical evidence, not starting a witch hunt.
  
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Reply #8 - 06/02/14 at 22:34:49
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Bibs wrote on 06/02/14 at 12:24:41:
I think RdC is misunderstanding Regan's work, or deliberately misrepresenting.
It appears to me like Regan is taking time out of his professional work to try to apply the skill set he has to help root out cheaters in the chess world. I believe that such considered efforts should be welcomed. Respect.


I don't believe I am misrepresenting him. He has expressed the belief that it is possible to make a valid accusation of cheating in an OTB tournament purely on the basis of analysis of a player's games. I dispute that belief and believe you need the additional evidence of how the computer engine was consulted.

http://www.chessprofessionals.org/content/draft-fideacp-anti-cheating-proposal is the ACP/FIDE proposal although FIDE have yet to endorse it.


The Committee recommends the implementation of a FIDE Internet-based Game Screening Tool for pre-scanning games and identifying potential instances of cheating, together with the adoption of a full-testing procedure in cases of complaints. Together they shall meet the highest academic and judicial standards, in that they have been subject to publication and peer review, have a limited and documented error rate, have undergone vast empirical testing, are continuously maintained, and are generally accepted by the scientific community. Once in place, the Internet-based Game Screening Tool will be accessible to arbiters and chess officials and will be a useful instrument to prevent fraud, while the full test procedure will adhere to greater privacy as managed by FIDE and ACC.



  
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Reply #7 - 06/02/14 at 16:44:06
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The article is a fascinating read.

We don't need to guess what Regan thinks of computers compared to "perfect" play. He states that perfect play is probably about 3600 elo and today's engines are around 3200-3300 strength. He states that computers are getting closer to perfection every year, gaining about 20 elo per year.
  
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Reply #6 - 06/02/14 at 15:38:24
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I believe I had an opponent cheating against me once. He was much lower rated, yet outplayed me for most of the game while mostly leaving the table while I was thinking. When I got into serious time trouble and he could no longer leave the board inconspicuously, he was suddenly playing much worse and I won easily.

This may seem rather flimsy evidence, but the player in question was in fact caught a couple of years later and his accomplice (who was probably using the unsophisticated method of standing outside the playing hall with a smartphone running an engine...) banned from attending his tournaments.

What really astonished me was just how much suspicion and circumstancial evidence was needed before the federation eventually took action and treated the case. Nobody likes to accuse anyone of cheating; TDs and officials want to be really sure before they do that. Which makes me think quite a few people actually get away with it by cheating more cleverly (hidden device, not choosing typical "computer moves").

Opens and amateur tournaments typically can't afford any high-tech anti-cheating measures, and usually even allow phones and computers in the playing hall "as long as they're switched off". This may just be too naïve these days.
  

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Reply #5 - 06/02/14 at 15:07:36
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Its as much a measure against random witch hunts as actual cheating.
  
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Reply #4 - 06/02/14 at 14:33:14
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A human could cheat more cleverly by choosing the 3rd or 4th choice of the engine in most cases.

Analysing moves and comparing to engines will always be futile in my opinion. Luckily it is very very difficult to cheat at chess, and very few players are inclined to do it anyway. I play regularly and have never suspected anybody.

There are some high profile cases, but in these the level of sophistication involved has been mind boggling.

In short, cheating is not a big problem in chess despite what you read in chessbase or other places.
  
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Reply #3 - 06/02/14 at 13:51:19
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It seems to me that the assumption is that if humans use computer engines to cheat, their moves will more likely correlate with engine moves, not that engines know the truth about chess.

More info would be welcome.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #2 - 06/02/14 at 12:24:41
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RdC wrote on 06/02/14 at 09:42:55:
GeneM wrote on 06/02/14 at 06:44:19:
. .

However, Regan's main goal is to better detect chess players who cheat by sneaking a use of Fritz.



Or Stockfish, Houdini, Komodo etc.

The method is flawed because it is quite legal to use engine moves in Over the Board competitions, provide that is, you or someone else analysed them beforehand in the calm of their study.

By contrast on-line competitions played in the absence of witnesses should never be used for important events and ratings. It's not just computer engines you have to worry about, it's also the open book next to the screen or the stronger player standing behind suggesting moves.

There's a hidden assumption behind ideas like IPR that computer engines know the truth about chess. I don't think that's true, or at least not yet. A couple of points:-
There are still engine v engine contests which result in decisive results.
Anand commented within recent years that if he went back and rechecked engine recommendations from a few years ago, the evaluations had changed. This would be both because of deeper searching and refining of parameters by the programmers.


I think RdC is misunderstanding Regan's work, or deliberately misrepresenting.
It appears to me like Regan is taking time out of his professional work to try to apply the skill set he has to help root out cheaters in the chess world. I believe that such considered efforts should be welcomed. Respect.
1. Regan is/was a very reasonable player. Regarding stats,  he appears eminent in this regard. I am sure he is well aware of theory being generated by softwares. Why do you assume he is ignorant of this? Frankly, this seems a ridiculous claim.
2. He is not assuming chess 'truth' of softwares. Has he stated this? No. But there will be few who disagree re: strength superiority, and the matches by Regan are for human moves and for those of superior softwares.

Non-disclaimer - I have never met Regan, nor had any contact with him.
  
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RdC
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Re: Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
Reply #1 - 06/02/14 at 09:42:55
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GeneM wrote on 06/02/14 at 06:44:19:
. .

However, Regan's main goal is to better detect chess players who cheat by sneaking a use of Fritz.



Or Stockfish, Houdini, Komodo etc.

The method is flawed because it is quite legal to use engine moves in Over the Board competitions, provide that is, you or someone else analysed them beforehand in the calm of their study.

By contrast on-line competitions played in the absence of witnesses should never be used for important events and ratings. It's not just computer engines you have to worry about, it's also the open book next to the screen or the stronger player standing behind suggesting moves.

There's a hidden assumption behind ideas like IPR that computer engines know the truth about chess. I don't think that's true, or at least not yet. A couple of points:-
There are still engine v engine contests which result in decisive results.
Anand commented within recent years that if he went back and rechecked engine recommendations from a few years ago, the evaluations had changed. This would be both because of deeper searching and refining of parameters by the programmers.
  
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GeneM
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Can Fritz estimate my Elo rating? Yes.
06/02/14 at 06:44:19
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. .
I cannot find the forum post presently, but some years ago I expressed surprise that Fritz did not yet have a feature whereby it could play against me and afterward tell me my estimated Elo rating.

Now Ken Regan has written a computer program that can do this (see article quotes below).
However, Regan's main goal is to better detect chess players who cheat by sneaking a use of Fritz.

In an unrealistically ideal world, a perfect mechanism for detecting cheating just by analyzing the moves would allow chess games played over the web, at long time controls, to be formally rated by organizations like the USCF - even when no TD is at each player's home to chaperon.
Great reductions in travel costs, hotel costs, venue rental fees passed on to tournament entry fees, and poor quality downtime between at-venue morning to evening games - could all be reduced.

For long time control competition, a mix of web-based and in-person face-to-face games would be nicer than the present world of web-based play being limited to unrated games. The mix would also help ensure the web play rating was not substantially higher than the in-person rating.

------------

http://www.uschess.org/content/view/12677/763/
Article Title: "How To Catch A Chess Cheater: Ken Regan Finds Moves Out Of Mind"

Quotes from the article:
------------

Ken Regan takes a set of chess positions played by a single player—ideally 200 or more but his analysis can work with as few as 20—and treats each position like a question on a multiple-choice exam. The score on this exam translates to an Elo rating, a score Regan calls an Intrinsic Perfor­mance Rating (IPR).
...
In Regan’s algorithms it is the relative differences in move quality that matter, not the absolute differences.
...
Regan would like to oversee the conversion of his 35,000 lines of C++ code into a Windows-driven program or portable app.
...
The most notorious public cheating case to date has been that of the then-26-year-old Bulgarian Borislav Ivanov. ... Regan’s analysis found that Ivanov’s moves ... translates to the odds of him independently making these moves to less than one chance in five million.
...
inevitable false positives. In any large open tournament with at least a thousand non-cheating players, the chances are very high that at least one of those honest players will earn a ... suspicious value.
...
data shows that players make 60 percent to 90 percent more errors when half a pawn ahead or behind than when the game is even.
...
The greatest over-the-board practical problems are not always caused by the objectively best moves, and Regan’s metric can quantify this distinction.
...
statistician Jeff Sonas has been rating historical players, but Regan’s IPR is more objective. Sonas uses historical game results [whereas Regan assess individual moves].
...
since Regan’s method compares moves to a common standard (the engine), rather than the results of games, he can objectively relate player abilities across eras. What he found was that rating inflation does not exist. ...
Thus one may conclude that Hikaru Nakamura’s peak FIDE rating of 2789 beats Bobby Fischer’s peak of 2785.
...
But selective-move cheaters would be doing it on critical moves, and Regan has untested tricks for these cases.


(End)
. .
  

GeneM , CastleLong.com , FRC-chess960
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