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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player (Read 7197 times)
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #12 - 02/02/20 at 12:01:19
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Having followed Marin's repertoire for a number of years, I came across a different move order in an internet friendly this week. 1.c4, c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 Nd7 4.Bg2 e5. This exact line isn't covered by Marin and I guess has the drawback of the B on c8 but it does fight for the centre successfully, with Nf6, Bd6, 0-0 as the follow up. I played an early cd, Qb3, 0-0 and eventually e4.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #11 - 06/07/14 at 22:37:47
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ULIFT wrote on 06/07/14 at 09:22:28:
Thanks for all the replies.  Why all the love for 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4?  Just personal preference, or is there some other reason why everyone is recommending it?


It's the most principled and very likely the best move in the position.  White is stuck playing some kind of reversed Benoni, and one where his opponent can potentially gain from not having advanced his c-pawn yet.
  
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #10 - 06/07/14 at 13:06:30
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ULIFT wrote on 06/07/14 at 09:22:28:
Thanks for all the replies.  Why all the love for 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4?  Just personal preference, or is there some other reason why everyone is recommending it?

It is objectively pretty good and the best scoring move for black in this position (pretty close to 50%, while everything else sees white scoring better) - nothing super amazing like black being already better, obviously, but pretty nice. After all, thinking about the similar position with reversed colours 1.d4 c5 2.d5 Nf6, that is certainly less popular than 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5  for black (2...e5 is more popular than 2...Nf6 after 1.d4 c5 2.d5 - although in fairness 2...Nf6 does score better), and after the former white should not really play c4 (he actually does more often than not, but with 3.Nc3 he scores way better). Not that I am claiming that white is clearly better, but his first-move advantage is probably slightly bigger than usual, so perhaps it's not too surprising that that's a quite reasonable play for black with reversed colours.

I suppose one does need to like the resulting positions, but objectively 2...d4 may well be the best move in the position.
  
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ULIFT
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #9 - 06/07/14 at 09:22:28
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Thanks for all the replies.  Why all the love for 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4?  Just personal preference, or is there some other reason why everyone is recommending it?
  
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #8 - 06/06/14 at 22:27:36
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I'm really keen on Eric the Red's 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 suggestion, and against 2.g3 (intending Bg2 and c4 while against the Slav/QGD setups while avoiding the main lines), you can stay in a Slav style position with 2...c6 3.Bg2 Bg4 4.c4 e6 (or 2...Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.c4 and now I'd recommend 4...dxc4, but that probably has sharper theory than you're after at this early stage). And against 1.c4, you can play 1...e5 or 1...c5 (I'd go for 1...e5 with various ...Bb4 options, but that's just my taste).

In this way you avoid the move order problems you noted with 1.c4 c6 2.e4 and 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.d4 (actually I've used both move order tricks myself!) without running into any new ones.

As a side-note, when you've been playing the Main Line Slav (4...dxc4) for a few years, your understanding of the opening will improve a lot from adding one of the Semi-Slav, Chebanenko and Schlechter.
  

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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #7 - 06/06/14 at 21:16:45
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Bonsai wrote on 06/06/14 at 20:24:46:
BPaulsen wrote on 06/06/14 at 18:30:24:
I don't think I'd endorse 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5.

I don't think it's that bad. It's a tiny bit ... dodgy, if I recall correctly. My knowledge may be somewhat outdated thoug, mostly based on FM Vigus when we went to university and he recommended it in our university's chess magazine.


Very little is out-and-out bad these days. Its relative value, compared to 2...d5, is a bit worse. That's all.
  

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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #6 - 06/06/14 at 20:24:46
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BPaulsen wrote on 06/06/14 at 18:30:24:
I don't think I'd endorse 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5.

I don't think it's that bad. It's a tiny bit ... dodgy, if I recall correctly. My knowledge may be somewhat outdated thoug, mostly based on FM Vigus when we went to university and he recommended it in our university's chess magazine.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #5 - 06/06/14 at 20:01:12
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tony37 wrote on 06/06/14 at 18:01:03:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
And yes, 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 is perfectly fine.

how do you want to continue without it becoming an Old Indian main line?


I don't, I'm just saying that it's fine if that's your thing.  I'd play 2...d5.

ULIFT wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:47:05:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
If you don't want to play the Meran and you don't seem to want to play ...a6 or ...g6 Slavs, I have to ask what you want to play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. 


Hi Eric.  Thanks for your reply.  I'm not entirely sure, but I understand that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 and 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 are possibilities.


Sounds like you shouldn't worry much about transpositions when you don't even know what you're going to play against main lines  Undecided.  I'd just play 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4!, though.
  
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #4 - 06/06/14 at 18:30:24
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I don't think I'd endorse 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5. 2...d5 works just fine. Learning one variation outside of what you perceive to be your repertoire will not kill you.
  

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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #3 - 06/06/14 at 18:01:03
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
And yes, 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 is perfectly fine.

how do you want to continue without it becoming an Old Indian main line?
  
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #2 - 06/06/14 at 17:47:05
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
If you don't want to play the Meran and you don't seem to want to play ...a6 or ...g6 Slavs, I have to ask what you want to play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. 


Hi Eric.  Thanks for your reply.  I'm not entirely sure, but I understand that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 and 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 are possibilities.
  
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Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #1 - 06/06/14 at 17:25:07
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Personally I'd go 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4!.  If you don't want to play the Meran and you don't seem to want to play ...a6 or ...g6 Slavs, I have to ask what you want to play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. 

And yes, 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 is perfectly fine.
  
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Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
06/06/14 at 15:15:15
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Hello all.

I'm ditching my not-so-trusty King's Indian and taking up the Classical Slav against 1. d4.  Unfortunately this necessitates changing my repertoire against c4 and Nf3.  I hope ChessPub members can help me decide what to choose and perhaps identify some study resources.  I've looked over some old threads, but still think a new one would be useful.  In general I'd like positions which are either very Slav-like or not very theoretical, to try to reduce my work-load (which is already pretty high with all the Slav learning), but of course this may not be possible.

Against the English it seems the most Slav-like approach is either 1...c6 2...d5 or 1...Nf6 2...c6 3...d5.  After 2. e4 in the first case or 2. Nc3 3. e4 in the second case it looks like the choice is between a Caro-Kann Panov-type position with 2/3...d5 (I don't play the Caro, so I don't already know this line) or 2/3...e5.  Do these 2/3...e5 positions have a decent reputation?  Is there a big difference between the positions with Nf6/Nc3 inserted and without?  Are there any other options I should be considering?  It would of course be possible to learn 1...c5 or e5 against the English, and it seems a lot of Slav players do play the latter.

Against Nf3 most Slav players seem to go 1...d5 2. c4 c6.  One of my concerns here is that after 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 5. d4 I have been tricked into a mainline opening with a lot of theory which I wouldn't reach by the normal move order.  4...a6 and g6 can also transpose into the 'wrong' kind of Slav.  Are there good independent options on move 4 (Bg4/Bf5)?  Are there different approaches I should be considering against Nf3?

Thanks in advance for any input.
  
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