Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player (Read 8018 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1075
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #14 - 02/04/21 at 14:36:46
Post Tools
scvchess wrote on 02/04/21 at 13:45:02:
First an answer to one of your specific questions. You don't need to worry about the move order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 because you have 3...d5. In general I would be careful about playing ...d5 because you can get reversed Benoni positions, but here since you get tempo on the knight it's just better for Black. The more accurate move order would be 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3 Nf3 4.Nc3 at which point you would be best advised to play 4...a6 allowing a transposition to the Chebanenko Slav. These systems for White make it hard to transpose to the Classical Slav, it's either Semi-Slav or Chebanenko.

Generally, it's fine to add information to a thread six years after the fact, but conversationally addressing the OP sounds a little odd since they have almost certainly moved on to other questions after all this time.

Specifically, indeed 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 can be answered by 3...d4, but the OP might have just been typing hastily, similar to what you did with your typo "3...d5". White can instead just play 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 as the Anti-Slav players do these days, and in fact this transposes to your second "more accurate" move order. The ones advocating 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 were trying to suggest a good line for black that also avoided the Semi-Slav, which your 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 does not appear to do.

The Semi-Slav is a good opening and as you noted is pretty much immune to move-order tricks. Even a Slav specialist like Jonny Hector has taken up the Semi-Slav, and although I don't think it suits his style quite as well, it's most probably for the move order reason. But there are players such as the OP who prefer not to play it, and they should definitely have their move orders well thought out.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
scvchess
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


In my second year of tournament
chess.

Posts: 19
Location: USA
Joined: 10/28/19
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #13 - 02/04/21 at 13:45:02
Post Tools
First an answer to one of your specific questions. You don't need to worry about the move order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 because you have 3...d4. In general I would be careful about playing ...d4 because you can get reversed Benoni positions, but here since you get tempo on the knight it's just better for Black. The more accurate move order would be 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3 Nf3 4.Nc3 at which point you would be best advised to play 4...a6 allowing a transposition to the Chebanenko Slav. These systems for White make it hard to transpose to the Classical Slav, it's either Semi-Slav or Chebanenko.

If you are curious, I am a Semi-Slav player and I personally play the following lines:

1. c4 c6 2.e4 d5, this version of the Panov is fine.

1. c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 e5, a very respected system against 2.g3 called the Accelerated Keres in the Marin books.

1.c4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e3 Nf6, I follow the Anti-Meran lines from Sam Shankland's "Lifetime Repertoires: Black vs the English, Réti and sidelines". Black has nothing better than to transpose to the Meran.

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6, I think this is a much more practical choice than the Reversed Benoni with 2...d4. Good coverage of this in "Lifetime Repertoires: Chebanenko Slav" by  GM Colovic.

1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Bg5, as covered in Beating Minor Openings by Victor Mikhalevski.

All and all Slav players should be very happy against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4. A quote from Shankland's aforementioned Chessable course which I am really happy with: "One nice thing about the Semi-Slav is that unlike a lot of other d4 openings, it is pretty resilient to move-order tricks. For example, the Queens Gambit Accepted is avoided with 1. c4, the Benoni and Benko are avoided with 1. Nf3, the Grunfeld gives White a huge amount of extraneous options if he starts with 1. Nf3 or 1. c4, and the list goes on. Black can always play something like c5 on the first move, forcing a symmetrical English and leaving any trace of transposing to a d4 opening behind as early as move one, but Semi-Slav players have the added luxury of being able to transpose to their preferred repertoire in a lot of cases without giving White many good extraneous options." Highly recommend his Semi-Slav and anti English/Reti courses!!
« Last Edit: 02/04/21 at 21:05:47 by scvchess »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Laramonet
Senior Member
****
Offline


Gwyddbwll am byth !

Posts: 310
Location: Kidwelly
Joined: 03/16/07
Gender: Male
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #12 - 02/02/20 at 12:01:19
Post Tools
Having followed Marin's repertoire for a number of years, I came across a different move order in an internet friendly this week. 1.c4, c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 Nd7 4.Bg2 e5. This exact line isn't covered by Marin and I guess has the drawback of the B on c8 but it does fight for the centre successfully, with Nf6, Bd6, 0-0 as the follow up. I played an early cd, Qb3, 0-0 and eventually e4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2506
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #11 - 06/07/14 at 22:37:47
Post Tools
ULIFT wrote on 06/07/14 at 09:22:28:
Thanks for all the replies.  Why all the love for 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4?  Just personal preference, or is there some other reason why everyone is recommending it?


It's the most principled and very likely the best move in the position.  White is stuck playing some kind of reversed Benoni, and one where his opponent can potentially gain from not having advanced his c-pawn yet.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #10 - 06/07/14 at 13:06:30
Post Tools
ULIFT wrote on 06/07/14 at 09:22:28:
Thanks for all the replies.  Why all the love for 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4?  Just personal preference, or is there some other reason why everyone is recommending it?

It is objectively pretty good and the best scoring move for black in this position (pretty close to 50%, while everything else sees white scoring better) - nothing super amazing like black being already better, obviously, but pretty nice. After all, thinking about the similar position with reversed colours 1.d4 c5 2.d5 Nf6, that is certainly less popular than 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5  for black (2...e5 is more popular than 2...Nf6 after 1.d4 c5 2.d5 - although in fairness 2...Nf6 does score better), and after the former white should not really play c4 (he actually does more often than not, but with 3.Nc3 he scores way better). Not that I am claiming that white is clearly better, but his first-move advantage is probably slightly bigger than usual, so perhaps it's not too surprising that that's a quite reasonable play for black with reversed colours.

I suppose one does need to like the resulting positions, but objectively 2...d4 may well be the best move in the position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ULIFT
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 9
Joined: 06/05/14
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #9 - 06/07/14 at 09:22:28
Post Tools
Thanks for all the replies.  Why all the love for 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4 d4?  Just personal preference, or is there some other reason why everyone is recommending it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #8 - 06/06/14 at 22:27:36
Post Tools
I'm really keen on Eric the Red's 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4 suggestion, and against 2.g3 (intending Bg2 and c4 while against the Slav/QGD setups while avoiding the main lines), you can stay in a Slav style position with 2...c6 3.Bg2 Bg4 4.c4 e6 (or 2...Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.c4 and now I'd recommend 4...dxc4, but that probably has sharper theory than you're after at this early stage). And against 1.c4, you can play 1...e5 or 1...c5 (I'd go for 1...e5 with various ...Bb4 options, but that's just my taste).

In this way you avoid the move order problems you noted with 1.c4 c6 2.e4 and 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.d4 (actually I've used both move order tricks myself!) without running into any new ones.

As a side-note, when you've been playing the Main Line Slav (4...dxc4) for a few years, your understanding of the opening will improve a lot from adding one of the Semi-Slav, Chebanenko and Schlechter.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #7 - 06/06/14 at 21:16:45
Post Tools
Bonsai wrote on 06/06/14 at 20:24:46:
BPaulsen wrote on 06/06/14 at 18:30:24:
I don't think I'd endorse 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5.

I don't think it's that bad. It's a tiny bit ... dodgy, if I recall correctly. My knowledge may be somewhat outdated thoug, mostly based on FM Vigus when we went to university and he recommended it in our university's chess magazine.


Very little is out-and-out bad these days. Its relative value, compared to 2...d5, is a bit worse. That's all.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #6 - 06/06/14 at 20:24:46
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 06/06/14 at 18:30:24:
I don't think I'd endorse 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5.

I don't think it's that bad. It's a tiny bit ... dodgy, if I recall correctly. My knowledge may be somewhat outdated thoug, mostly based on FM Vigus when we went to university and he recommended it in our university's chess magazine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2506
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #5 - 06/06/14 at 20:01:12
Post Tools
tony37 wrote on 06/06/14 at 18:01:03:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
And yes, 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 is perfectly fine.

how do you want to continue without it becoming an Old Indian main line?


I don't, I'm just saying that it's fine if that's your thing.  I'd play 2...d5.

ULIFT wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:47:05:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
If you don't want to play the Meran and you don't seem to want to play ...a6 or ...g6 Slavs, I have to ask what you want to play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. 


Hi Eric.  Thanks for your reply.  I'm not entirely sure, but I understand that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 and 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 are possibilities.


Sounds like you shouldn't worry much about transpositions when you don't even know what you're going to play against main lines  Undecided.  I'd just play 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4!, though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #4 - 06/06/14 at 18:30:24
Post Tools
I don't think I'd endorse 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5. 2...d5 works just fine. Learning one variation outside of what you perceive to be your repertoire will not kill you.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 615
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #3 - 06/06/14 at 18:01:03
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
And yes, 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 is perfectly fine.

how do you want to continue without it becoming an Old Indian main line?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ULIFT
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 9
Joined: 06/05/14
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #2 - 06/06/14 at 17:47:05
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 06/06/14 at 17:25:07:
If you don't want to play the Meran and you don't seem to want to play ...a6 or ...g6 Slavs, I have to ask what you want to play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. 


Hi Eric.  Thanks for your reply.  I'm not entirely sure, but I understand that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 Bf5 and 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 are possibilities.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2506
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
Reply #1 - 06/06/14 at 17:25:07
Post Tools
Personally I'd go 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 d4!.  If you don't want to play the Meran and you don't seem to want to play ...a6 or ...g6 Slavs, I have to ask what you want to play after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3. 

And yes, 1.c4 c6 2.e4 e5 is perfectly fine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ULIFT
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 9
Joined: 06/05/14
Black vs 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 for the Slav player
06/06/14 at 15:15:15
Post Tools
Hello all.

I'm ditching my not-so-trusty King's Indian and taking up the Classical Slav against 1. d4.  Unfortunately this necessitates changing my repertoire against c4 and Nf3.  I hope ChessPub members can help me decide what to choose and perhaps identify some study resources.  I've looked over some old threads, but still think a new one would be useful.  In general I'd like positions which are either very Slav-like or not very theoretical, to try to reduce my work-load (which is already pretty high with all the Slav learning), but of course this may not be possible.

Against the English it seems the most Slav-like approach is either 1...c6 2...d5 or 1...Nf6 2...c6 3...d5.  After 2. e4 in the first case or 2. Nc3 3. e4 in the second case it looks like the choice is between a Caro-Kann Panov-type position with 2/3...d5 (I don't play the Caro, so I don't already know this line) or 2/3...e5.  Do these 2/3...e5 positions have a decent reputation?  Is there a big difference between the positions with Nf6/Nc3 inserted and without?  Are there any other options I should be considering?  It would of course be possible to learn 1...c5 or e5 against the English, and it seems a lot of Slav players do play the latter.

Against Nf3 most Slav players seem to go 1...d5 2. c4 c6.  One of my concerns here is that after 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 5. d4 I have been tricked into a mainline opening with a lot of theory which I wouldn't reach by the normal move order.  4...a6 and g6 can also transpose into the 'wrong' kind of Slav.  Are there good independent options on move 4 (Bg4/Bf5)?  Are there different approaches I should be considering against Nf3?

Thanks in advance for any input.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo