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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best ...Bc5 line for Black? (Read 24966 times)
PANFR
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Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #6 - 06/16/14 at 21:23:57
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3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 is better for white after 5.Nxe5, regardless if Black picks 5...Nxe4 or 5...Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2.
So, I would opt for 3...Bc5 which is OK for Black after 4.0-0 Nd4(!), while after 4.c3 Nf6 (or 4...Bb6 first) you can trust Costen in "Dangerous weapons"- his analysis is pretty much OK.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #5 - 06/15/14 at 22:52:00
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For what little it's worth, I'd think that the Classical Berlin and the New Archangel (isn't that the name of the last line?) are probably Black's best.  The New Archangel probably gives more winning chances, but also allows White more early deviations such as the Exchange, etc.  It has the added advantage that 7.Nxe5 stays more dynamic, whereas in the Classical Berlin it often leads to dull positions.

On the plus side, most non-professionals seem to give little thought to the side deviations and play straight down the Lopez main line as White, with little thought to why they're playing the moves they're playing!  So you'll likely get the New Archangel position quite often. 

At least, that's my experience.  If you get 3.Bb5 at all, you get people reeling off main lines without necessarily understanding them, more than just about any other opening variation I can think of (with the possible exception of the 9.Bc4 Dragon).

Caveat emptor: I have very little experience with these lines from either side.
  
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Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #4 - 06/15/14 at 19:58:42
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nocteus wrote on 06/15/14 at 13:08:02:
...After 4. c3,  4...Nf6 transposes to Classical Berlin.....


That is not quite true since White can play 3...Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 here instead of 5 0-0. You won´t get this position from the ´real´ Classical Berlin move order 3...Nf6 since here 4 c3 leaves e4 hanging. I see no reason to give White this extra possibility by playing 3...Bc5 unless you can make 4 c3 f5 work.
  
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nocteus
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Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #3 - 06/15/14 at 13:08:02
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I have been a fan of early deviations for black in the open games. You always get either a lively play or an equal but rich position to outplay your opponent, while cutting huge amounts of theory (especially U2000).

1. e4 e5 2. Cf3 Cc6 3. Fb5 Fc5 4. O-O  (After 4. c3,  4...Nf6 transposes to Classical Berlin, 4...f5 is tense, quite theoretical and chaotic, 4...Nge7 and 4...Qf6 are good practical weapons but very risky) Cd4!? (a kind of improved Bird) 5. Cxd4 Fxd4 6. c3 Fb6 7. d4 c6! 8. Fa4 d6 9. dxe5  (9. Ca3-c4 must be critical, to put pressure on e5) 9... dxe5 10. Dxd8+ Fxd8, when the strongest will win.
  
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Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #2 - 06/15/14 at 10:34:19
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Hi

McDonald's "Ruy-Lopez:Move by Move" mentions a little about these move-orders; it is not very deep but is very well written and motivated; by far one of the best opening books i have seen in recent times

i also think that the last variant is very topical nowadays
  
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Fllg
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Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #1 - 06/15/14 at 08:00:38
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About the Classical Berlin with ...Bc5 there are two very good chapters by Tony Kosten in Everyman´s "Dangerous Weapons: The Ruy Lopez". But you should be aware that after 5 Nxe5 Nxe5!? is somewhat risky (but fun!) while the solid 5...Nxe4 leads to dull positions

The only thing missing there is something about 4 d3 and other 4th moves from Black´s point of view (Kosten looks at 4 0-0 Bc5 5 d3 though). This is very well covered in "The Berlin Defence" by Lysyj & Ovetchkin from Chess Stars.

I believe 3...Bc5 4 c3 is better for White. About the other lines you mention I don´t know much.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
06/15/14 at 07:13:00
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Does anyone have an opinion about which ...Bc5 line in the Ruy Lopez is the best for black? Or at least one which gives good chances of getting a dynamic game? And are there good sources for them that can be recommended?
I guess the choices are between:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5;
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5;
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5;
and
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5.
Thanks for anyone's opinion!
  
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