Just wondering if there's any consensus on which move-order is the best?

Between these 2:

A: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5
and
B: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5.

From my own brief research White seems to have an extra option to retreat his bishop to c2 in option A: 6.c3 b5 7.Bc2 (instead of 7.Bb3), in B: the bishop can only go to b3 because c3 hasn't been played yet.

Option A seems to have independent value vs 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.d4 now Black has choice between 7...b5 transposing into B's version of the Nxe5 line, or going for independent 7...Nxe4, both of which seem playable but 7...b5 is preferred by the engine.

Therefore it seems to me that B should be preferred, as you get the same as A without having to learn the extra bishop retreat to c2.

However! Perhaps a big benefit of A is White needs to know 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 transposes to their line vs New Archangel (assuming they play the mainline vs New Archangel). Therefore perhaps option A gives White more room to go wrong in the opening, if they're unaware of this transposition. The price of learning the extra bishop retreat to c2 in option A may be worth the cost, if there's the chance White isn't aware of the transposition. I can see how someone surprised by 5...Bc5 move-order may go for 6.d3 protecting the pawn, or 6.Nc3 for same reasons. Both of which seem to give away all of White's opening advantage.

Does anyone know of any other downside of Option A, apart from having to learn the extra bishop retreat to c2? I will continue to try and find one but haven't yet. At the top lvl they will ofc be aware of this transposition, so for them it makes sense to use option B to avoid having to bother learning a line for the extra bishop retreat, however, at lower levels, it may be worth going for option A.

ErictheRed wrote on 07/05/14 at 07:22:26:


Not sure this answer the question but this has been mentioned in the past: in addition to the Everyman's book, there are the three excellent CB DVDs on the Neo-Archangel by Alexei Shirov (that is if you are a fan of his ad hoc impromptu style) who calls it the Tkachiev Var after the Russian (?) now French GM (My best games in the Spanish Vol. 2 and 3 and Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez) and there is also a Mikhalchishin DVD on the Archangel (again there ares one who dislike his style and quality).
But nothing newer than those, I think.

nocteus wrote on 07/05/14 at 15:49:46:


Well both sides' pawns are pretty flexible, and it depends on what White does.  Obviously play against e4 a theme, if possible.  If White plays Bc1-g5 Black will play ...Ng6 and ...h6, so that White no longer has the two bishops.  Sometimes Black chases down the light squared bishop with his knight (...Nxb3) resulting in a opposite-colored middlegame position, and sometimes (especially if White plays f2-f4) Black can blow open the center completely with ...d6-d5. 

All in all, this positions seems completely fine for Black to me, with dynamic chances.  But there isn't one single strategic theme, the play will depend on how White arranges his forces.  Some sample lines:

Basically a (rare!) gap in the market I think, which is good given how very natural/respectable these lines are. An  Panczyk/Emms book from 2000, not sure how relevant that is by now. An awful lot of strong games with 6.. Bc5 since then.

Always the relevant chesspub section of course Never checked that one for this so can't say for sure but would imagine it'll be much the best extant source.

Fllg wrote on 06/17/14 at 17:36:43:


It's probably white's best try for an advantage, although 8...Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 looks better than his suggestion 9.Kd1 (where he fails to mention Black's best move 9...c6).

What about 3...Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 Bb6 6 Nxe5 ? I´m interested how Black should react here since 6...Nxe5 7 dxe5 Nxe4 8 Qg4 is better for White according to Sokolov.

After, 3...Bc5 4.Nxe5 Qg5!? is very interesting, while after 4...Nxe5 5.d4 Fd6, black can develop his knight to e7, which is very useful in general, to overprotect e5.

Another point of of 3...Bc5 is that, at the amateur level, given the popularity and reputation of the Berlin, I more often encounter 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.d3 than 4.O-O. Given that, if I prefer to equalize quickly (and get an interesting endgame) and choose the road 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.d3 Nd4.

3...Bc5 4.Nxe5 is also an interesting option and recommended by Greet in his book on playing the Lopez some years ago. That's the line that puts me off the 3...Bc5 move order the most...