Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Best ...Bc5 line for Black? (Read 20446 times)
Methodchess
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 23
Joined: 02/09/16
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #21 - 03/29/16 at 07:06:29
Post Tools
Just wondering if there's any consensus on which move-order is the best?

Between these 2:

A: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5
and
B: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5.

From my own brief research White seems to have an extra option to retreat his bishop to c2 in option A: 6.c3 b5 7.Bc2 (instead of 7.Bb3), in B: the bishop can only go to b3 because c3 hasn't been played yet.

Option A seems to have independent value vs 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.d4 now Black has choice between 7...b5 transposing into B's version of the Nxe5 line, or going for independent 7...Nxe4, both of which seem playable but 7...b5 is preferred by the engine.

Therefore it seems to me that B should be preferred, as you get the same as A without having to learn the extra bishop retreat to c2.

However! Perhaps a big benefit of A is White needs to know 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 transposes to their line vs New Archangel (assuming they play the mainline vs New Archangel). Therefore perhaps option A gives White more room to go wrong in the opening, if they're unaware of this transposition. The price of learning the extra bishop retreat to c2 in option A may be worth the cost, if there's the chance White isn't aware of the transposition. I can see how someone surprised by 5...Bc5 move-order may go for 6.d3 protecting the pawn, or 6.Nc3 for same reasons. Both of which seem to give away all of White's opening advantage.

Does anyone know of any other downside of Option A, apart from having to learn the extra bishop retreat to c2? I will continue to try and find one but haven't yet. At the top lvl they will ofc be aware of this transposition, so for them it makes sense to use option B to avoid having to bother learning a line for the extra bishop retreat, however, at lower levels, it may be worth going for option A.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Grunfeldhope
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 9
Location: Australia
Joined: 07/15/14
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #20 - 07/24/14 at 13:00:31
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/05/14 at 07:22:26:
What are the good books (or DVDs/CDs) on the Archangel and Neo-Archangel, anyway?  This thread has really piqued my interest from the Black point of view.


Take a look at Everyman's Archangel & New Archangel by Krzysztof Panczyk, where it's given a serious treatment (but not for anyone under intermediate chess knowledge)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GabrielGale
Senior Member
****
Offline


Who was Thursday?

Posts: 471
Location: Sydney
Joined: 02/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #19 - 07/06/14 at 09:19:09
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/05/14 at 07:22:26:
What are the good books (or DVDs/CDs) on the Archangel and Neo-Archangel, anyway?  This thread has really piqued my interest from the Black point of view.


Not sure this answer the question but this has been mentioned in the past: in addition to the Everyman's book, there are the three excellent CB DVDs on the Neo-Archangel by Alexei Shirov (that is if you are a fan of his ad hoc impromptu style) who calls it the Tkachiev Var after the Russian (?) now French GM (My best games in the Spanish Vol. 2 and 3 and Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez) and there is also a Mikhalchishin DVD on the Archangel (again there ares one who dislike his style and quality).
But nothing newer than those, I think.
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4691
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #18 - 07/05/14 at 20:56:17
Post Tools
It seemed to me that 7. Nxe5 was indeed most topical in the 1990s, with books from the 1990s and 2000s basically regarding it as equal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2513
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #17 - 07/05/14 at 20:13:31
Post Tools
nocteus wrote on 07/05/14 at 15:49:46:
Could you highlight the strategical ideas for black in this position? Should they play against e4 or try to roll the queenside pawns on? Where should be developped the Bc8? etc.
Thank you so much.


Well both sides' pawns are pretty flexible, and it depends on what White does.  Obviously play against e4 a theme, if possible.  If White plays Bc1-g5 Black will play ...Ng6 and ...h6, so that White no longer has the two bishops.  Sometimes Black chases down the light squared bishop with his knight (...Nxb3) resulting in a opposite-colored middlegame position, and sometimes (especially if White plays f2-f4) Black can blow open the center completely with ...d6-d5. 

All in all, this positions seems completely fine for Black to me, with dynamic chances.  But there isn't one single strategic theme, the play will depend on how White arranges his forces.  Some sample lines:



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 127
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #16 - 07/05/14 at 15:49:46
Post Tools
Quote:
Really?  Again I don't have much experience here, but one thing that draws me to the Neo-Archangel is:



This looks like excellent winning chances for Black to me.  Of course White might have some edge with his bishops, but the position is sharp, unlike various other x...Bc5 y.Nxe5 lines. 



Could you highlight the strategical ideas for black in this position? Should they play against e4 or try to roll the queenside pawns on? Where should be developped the Bc8? etc.
Thank you so much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2012
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #15 - 07/05/14 at 09:11:28
Post Tools
Basically a (rare!) gap in the market I think, which is good given how very natural/respectable these lines are. An  Panczyk/Emms book from 2000, not sure how relevant that is by now. An awful lot of strong games with 6.. Bc5 since then.

Always the relevant chesspub section of course Smiley Never checked that one for this so can't say for sure but would imagine it'll be much the best extant source.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2513
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #14 - 07/05/14 at 07:22:26
Post Tools
What are the good books (or DVDs/CDs) on the Archangel and Neo-Archangel, anyway?  This thread has really piqued my interest from the Black point of view.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #13 - 06/18/14 at 05:33:34
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 06/17/14 at 17:36:43:
What about 3...Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 Bb6 6 Nxe5 ? I´m interested how Black should react here since 6...Nxe5 7 dxe5 Nxe4 8 Qg4 is better for White according to Sokolov.


It's probably white's best try for an advantage, although 8...Bxf2+ 9.Ke2 looks better than his suggestion 9.Kd1 (where he fails to mention Black's best move 9...c6).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2513
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #12 - 06/17/14 at 17:46:41
Post Tools
TN wrote on 06/17/14 at 13:50:05:
To be honest, the Nxe5 lines are a problem in the Neo-Archangel system - not from a theoretical perspective, but for trying to play for a win as Black (OK, Shirov beat Leko some time ago, but there Leko was actually pushing for the win).


Really?  Again I don't have much experience here, but one thing that draws me to the Neo-Archangel is:



This looks like excellent winning chances for Black to me.  Of course White might have some edge with his bishops, but the position is sharp, unlike various other x...Bc5 y.Nxe5 lines. 

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #11 - 06/17/14 at 17:36:43
Post Tools
What about 3...Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 Bb6 6 Nxe5 ? I´m interested how Black should react here since 6...Nxe5 7 dxe5 Nxe4 8 Qg4 is better for White according to Sokolov.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #10 - 06/17/14 at 17:31:20
Post Tools
nocteus wrote on 06/15/14 at 13:08:02:
I have been a fan of early deviations for black in the open games. You always get either a lively play or an equal but rich position to outplay your opponent, while cutting huge amounts of theory (especially U2000).

1. e4 e5 2. Cf3 Cc6 3. Fb5 Fc5 4. O-O  (After 4. c3,  4...Nf6 transposes to Classical Berlin, 4...f5 is tense, quite theoretical and chaotic, 4...Nge7 and 4...Qf6 are good practical weapons but very risky) Cd4!? (a kind of improved Bird) 5. Cxd4 Fxd4 6. c3 Fb6 7. d4 c6! 8. Fa4 d6 9. dxe5  (9. Ca3-c4 must be critical, to put pressure on e5) 9... dxe5 10. Dxd8+ Fxd8, when the strongest will win.


I have analysed 4.c3 f5 quite a bit. My belief is that it's unsound, but it does need good memorization and careful analysis.
After 4.0-0 Nd4 5.b4!? (well covered by Kosten) is probably white's best try for an advantage. Certainly more practical evidence is needed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 127
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #9 - 06/17/14 at 13:55:16
Post Tools
After, 3...Bc5 4.Nxe5 Qg5!? is very interesting, while after 4...Nxe5 5.d4 Fd6, black can develop his knight to e7, which is very useful in general, to overprotect e5.

Another point of of 3...Bc5 is that, at the amateur level, given the popularity and reputation of the Berlin, I more often encounter 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.d3 than 4.O-O. Given that, if I prefer to equalize quickly (and get an interesting endgame) and choose the road 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5 4.d3 Nd4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #8 - 06/17/14 at 13:50:05
Post Tools
To be honest, the Nxe5 lines are a problem in the Neo-Archangel system - not from a theoretical perspective, but for trying to play for a win as Black (OK, Shirov beat Leko some time ago, but there Leko was actually pushing for the win). As for 3...Bc5, 4.Nxe5 is harmless after 4...Qe7 5.Nf3 Qxe4 6.Be2 Nd4 7.Nxd4 Qxd4 8.0-0 and surprisingly Greet doesn't consider 8...d5 9.c3 Qf6 10.d4 Bd6 11.Bd3 Ne7 12.Nd2 0-0 which is just equal for Black (the position is very similar to the 5.Re1 Anti-Berlin). I know that after 5...Bc5 Black has nothing better than transposing to the Neo-Archangel in any case, while I don't know so much about the 3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 lines, but I do agree that 5.Nxe5 is a bit unpleasant there from a practical point of view, and I also quite like 5.c3 0-0 6.d4 Bb6 7.Bg5 for White.

I would ultimately go with the Neo-Archangel from a theoretical perspective, but 3...Bc5 is best if you want to get your system on the board as soon as possible to avoid White deviations. If you're over 2000 it's sensible to have a second, more solid option as well (like the Berlin or Breyer), so you aren't vulnerable to prep.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tipau
Full Member
***
Offline


I Like ChessPublishing!

Posts: 172
Location: London, England
Joined: 01/25/08
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #7 - 06/17/14 at 09:03:57
Post Tools
3...Bc5 4.Nxe5 is also an interesting option and recommended by Greet in his book on playing the Lopez some years ago. That's the line that puts me off the 3...Bc5 move order the most...
« Last Edit: 06/17/14 at 11:46:00 by tipau »  

FIDE: ~2100
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #6 - 06/16/14 at 21:23:57
Post Tools
3...Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 is better for white after 5.Nxe5, regardless if Black picks 5...Nxe4 or 5...Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2.
So, I would opt for 3...Bc5 which is OK for Black after 4.0-0 Nd4(!), while after 4.c3 Nf6 (or 4...Bb6 first) you can trust Costen in "Dangerous weapons"- his analysis is pretty much OK.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2513
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #5 - 06/15/14 at 22:52:00
Post Tools
For what little it's worth, I'd think that the Classical Berlin and the New Archangel (isn't that the name of the last line?) are probably Black's best.  The New Archangel probably gives more winning chances, but also allows White more early deviations such as the Exchange, etc.  It has the added advantage that 7.Nxe5 stays more dynamic, whereas in the Classical Berlin it often leads to dull positions.

On the plus side, most non-professionals seem to give little thought to the side deviations and play straight down the Lopez main line as White, with little thought to why they're playing the moves they're playing!  So you'll likely get the New Archangel position quite often. 

At least, that's my experience.  If you get 3.Bb5 at all, you get people reeling off main lines without necessarily understanding them, more than just about any other opening variation I can think of (with the possible exception of the 9.Bc4 Dragon).

Caveat emptor: I have very little experience with these lines from either side.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #4 - 06/15/14 at 19:58:42
Post Tools
nocteus wrote on 06/15/14 at 13:08:02:
...After 4. c3,  4...Nf6 transposes to Classical Berlin.....


That is not quite true since White can play 3...Bc5 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4 here instead of 5 0-0. You won´t get this position from the ´real´ Classical Berlin move order 3...Nf6 since here 4 c3 leaves e4 hanging. I see no reason to give White this extra possibility by playing 3...Bc5 unless you can make 4 c3 f5 work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Full Member
***
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 127
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #3 - 06/15/14 at 13:08:02
Post Tools
I have been a fan of early deviations for black in the open games. You always get either a lively play or an equal but rich position to outplay your opponent, while cutting huge amounts of theory (especially U2000).

1. e4 e5 2. Cf3 Cc6 3. Fb5 Fc5 4. O-O  (After 4. c3,  4...Nf6 transposes to Classical Berlin, 4...f5 is tense, quite theoretical and chaotic, 4...Nge7 and 4...Qf6 are good practical weapons but very risky) Cd4!? (a kind of improved Bird) 5. Cxd4 Fxd4 6. c3 Fb6 7. d4 c6! 8. Fa4 d6 9. dxe5  (9. Ca3-c4 must be critical, to put pressure on e5) 9... dxe5 10. Dxd8+ Fxd8, when the strongest will win.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 566
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #2 - 06/15/14 at 10:34:19
Post Tools
Hi

McDonald's "Ruy-Lopez:Move by Move" mentions a little about these move-orders; it is not very deep but is very well written and motivated; by far one of the best opening books i have seen in recent times

i also think that the last variant is very topical nowadays
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
Reply #1 - 06/15/14 at 08:00:38
Post Tools
About the Classical Berlin with ...Bc5 there are two very good chapters by Tony Kosten in Everyman´s "Dangerous Weapons: The Ruy Lopez". But you should be aware that after 5 Nxe5 Nxe5!? is somewhat risky (but fun!) while the solid 5...Nxe4 leads to dull positions

The only thing missing there is something about 4 d3 and other 4th moves from Black´s point of view (Kosten looks at 4 0-0 Bc5 5 d3 though). This is very well covered in "The Berlin Defence" by Lysyj & Ovetchkin from Chess Stars.

I believe 3...Bc5 4 c3 is better for White. About the other lines you mention I don´t know much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 340
Joined: 05/15/08
Best ...Bc5 line for Black?
06/15/14 at 07:13:00
Post Tools
Does anyone have an opinion about which ...Bc5 line in the Ruy Lopez is the best for black? Or at least one which gives good chances of getting a dynamic game? And are there good sources for them that can be recommended?
I guess the choices are between:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5;
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5;
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5;
and
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6.Bb3 Bc5.
Thanks for anyone's opinion!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo