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Poll Question: Whats the most solid/quiet/positional variation of the KID?



« Created by: Marc Benford on: 06/23/14 at 20:34:48 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Good books about the KID from White's perspective? (Read 19286 times)
RdC
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #32 - 06/27/14 at 19:37:07
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If Black doesn't want to play a Kings Indian with .. e5, you really cannot stop him. The Gruenfeld isn't possible after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 and some players have used the order 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 g6 3. e4 Bg7 4. d4 to even further discourage it.

Whilst the Petrosian system, both in the traditional form and the modern alternatives attempts to clamp down on the f5 break, it's going to happen eventually, even if played under favourable circumstances for White. Any player who doesn't feel able to play that type of position will eventually have to abandon 1. d4 2. c4 typical positions as it's a position that many variations eventually lead to.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #31 - 06/27/14 at 18:15:57
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Black can't avoid the position after 4 Nf3 in the classical can he? The first few black moves are so non commital that he can play in all sorts of ways vs any of the plausible white set ups Smiley
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #30 - 06/27/14 at 17:52:21
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Thank you all for your answers.

Okay so I can eliminate the Gligoric System 7.Be3 for sure.

What's worrying me about the Petrosian System 7.d5 and the Exchange Variation 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 is that Black has so many ways to avoid them completely:

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Nc3 Black can try 4...d5 or 4...c5 or 4...O-O 5. e4 c6 6. Be2 d5 or 4...O-O 5. e4 c5

And most importantly, after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5. e4 d6 6. Be2, Black doesn't have to play 6...e5, he has so many possibilites to deviate: 6...c5, 6...Nbd7, 6...Na6, 6...Nc6, 6...c6, 6...Bg4

But on the other hand Black has no way to avoid the Fianchetto Variation 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.g3

And there's something I find bad about the Petrosian System 7.d5 : it doesn't look to be that much solid/quiet/positional... It does possess the name of the most solid/quiet/positional/drawish player of all time, but it seems to still look like the Mar Del Plata (which everyone said is extremely sharp and tactical) except that the Black queenside Knight has a different journey.
I've seen some games with live commentary on Youtube which featured the Petrosian Sytem of the KID, and Black got very big and scary Kingside attacks against the poor White King who got slaughtered in most of them...

The only downside of the Fianchetto Variation of the KID is that in my entire opening repertoire I never use any fianchetto (so I was thinking that since I don't play any fianchetto I will get very familiarized/accustomed to positions without any fianchetto, and should therefore not aim for anything with a fianchetto).
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #29 - 06/26/14 at 23:23:49
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barnaby wrote on 06/26/14 at 19:41:25:
For white, one tip in the main lines of the Mar del Plata is that the bishops are better defenders of the kingside than are the knights.  Send the knights off to raid the queenside and keep the bishops ready to cover the holes on the kingside.

Get Black's white-square bishop off the board and live longer.

Playing the main lines as White with 9. Ne1 is seriously fun chess and should not be missed.

Smiley


Agree with this, although the Ne1-d3-f2 maneuver is a standby.  In the Ne1 Mar Del Plata, as White, Nd3-f2 is almost always the move I play if, for whatever reason, I can't decide what to do next on the queenside.  It's always fun to win the game with a Black knight sitting uselessly on the g3 square not doing anything.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #28 - 06/26/14 at 19:41:25
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For white, one tip in the main lines of the Mar del Plata is that the bishops are better defenders of the kingside than are the knights.  Send the knights off to raid the queenside and keep the bishops ready to cover the holes on the kingside.

Get Black's white-square bishop off the board and live longer.

Playing the main lines as White with 9. Ne1 is seriously fun chess and should not be missed.

Smiley
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #27 - 06/26/14 at 08:28:59
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Straggler wrote on 06/26/14 at 07:47:05:
I did wonder about the Fianchetto. Others have suggested that it's too subtle for the likes of me, but I gather that Wojo's Weapons explains it quite well.

I noticed that in this thread BPaulsen suggested the Gligoric: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226348173/135. Apparently it's good for White if Black just aims for the standard kingside attack, which at my level many people will. In fact, at my level the most effective lines are probably those that offer the best chances if neither player knows much theory!


I still think the Gligoric a good choice, and happen to have a higher opinion of it now than I did even in 2010 when I recommended it.

To answer a question someone asked me in that thread, but that I never saw until now (I don't feel like bumping it):

Michael Ayton wrote on 02/18/10 at 18:37:16:
Very interesting, BPaulsen -- your inspiring write-up has encouraged me to take a look at this.

What is your take on 7 ...Na6, when Golubev recommends transposition to E94 with 8 0-0? And how should White meet 7 ...Nbd7? -- 8 d5, or 8 de de 9 Nd2 perhaps? (I don't really want to run into trendy Dembo stuff, esp. as I might give this a punt as Black!)


7...Na6 and 7...Nbd7 should both be met by 8.0-0, in my opinion. Black has already announced he doesn't intend to mate you, so there is no reason to continue delaying it.
  

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #26 - 06/26/14 at 07:47:05
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I did wonder about the Fianchetto. Others have suggested that it's too subtle for the likes of me, but I gather that Wojo's Weapons explains it quite well.

I noticed that in this thread BPaulsen suggested the Gligoric: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226348173/135. Apparently it's good for White if Black just aims for the standard kingside attack, which at my level many people will. In fact, at my level the most effective lines are probably those that offer the best chances if neither player knows much theory!
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #25 - 06/25/14 at 22:25:07
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Straggler wrote on 06/25/14 at 12:28:45:
True, but it doesn't follow that such a person will have any clear idea of what lines would suit him or her. I, for example, have been playing for many years and am around 1800. My general knowledge about the KID is that if you play the best lines (with d5) and don't know the theory you will quickly get mated. So, when I have found myself facing the KID in the past, I have tended to play rubbish like the London or the Barry. I want to start playing respectable lines without having to memorise a huge wad of theory. But my knowledge of the various lines is quite inadequate to enable me to make an informed choice. Call me ignorant if you like, but I don't think I'm unusual in this respect. Actually I seem to know more theory than most of my opponents.

Incidentally I have a particular problem with lines that don't involve an early Nf3: what do you do about 1.d4 d6, or (especially) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6?


The problem with the KID generally (for White) is that unless you are willing to play something critical (and almost everything is) then you are accepting equality out of the box; that's what the KID is for, after all: trying to get White to commit to come home with his shield, or upon it.  So there isn't any remotely challenging variation that doesn't involve some risk.

However, there are certainly less risky lines than the Mar Del Plata; I suggested the Petrosian, but many of the lines with h2-h3 and / or the Averbakh have a similar plan of restraining Black on the kingside rather than inviting him forward.  And that probably means less risk of getting mated.

If you want to avoid the locked pawn centers of the KID main lines, the Fianchetto is probably your best bet.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #24 - 06/25/14 at 17:04:09
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Straggler wrote on 06/25/14 at 12:28:45:
I want to start playing respectable lines without having to memorise a huge wad of theory.

There are a couple of options: 5.Bd3, 6.Nge2 (Seirawan) or 5.Nf3, 6.h3. I tried both, but they didn't really suit me.  So I chose 5.h3, 6.Bg5 which can be played against the Benoni as well and scores excellently in practice. It demands preparation of course. In another corr. game of mine, which actually began via the KID, I played 10.Nge2 iso 10.Nf3 (see previous page) as I was too lazy to find out which one was best. After 10.Nge2 I barely scraped a draw.

Straggler wrote on 06/25/14 at 12:28:45:
Incidentally I have a particular problem with lines that don't involve an early Nf3: what do you do about 1.d4 d6, or (especially) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6?

Recently I met someone whom I suspected to play the Lion and eventually the Philidor. So I followed Schandorff's recommendation 1.d4 d6 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Nbd7 5.e4 Nc5 6.f3. Black can't transpose well to the KID anymore after 4.d5. While I have my doubts - Schandorff is quite optimistic imo - I managed to win a nice game; Black had 100 ELO points more.
I prefer my games sharp with me having the initiative. If you're risk averse you better turn to 1.e4 imo.
  

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #23 - 06/25/14 at 12:28:45
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kylemeister wrote on 06/23/14 at 21:39:33:
But here's a kind of thing I continue to wonder:  if you have reached even 1800 in something like USCF or FIDE, do you not have some general knowledge about, and inclination/disinclination towards, various openings/variations arising from, for example, studying a variety of annotated games?  Instead it seems to be all, Opening Explorer says this, Houdini says that, Wikipedia says ...

True, but it doesn't follow that such a person will have any clear idea of what lines would suit him or her. I, for example, have been playing for many years and am around 1800. My general knowledge about the KID is that if you play the best lines (with d5) and don't know the theory you will quickly get mated. So, when I have found myself facing the KID in the past, I have tended to play rubbish like the London or the Barry. I want to start playing respectable lines without having to memorise a huge wad of theory. But my knowledge of the various lines is quite inadequate to enable me to make an informed choice. Call me ignorant if you like, but I don't think I'm unusual in this respect. Actually I seem to know more theory than most of my opponents.

Incidentally I have a particular problem with lines that don't involve an early Nf3: what do you do about 1.d4 d6, or (especially) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6?
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #22 - 06/25/14 at 12:13:04
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OrangeCounty wrote on 06/25/14 at 00:36:32:
  My point is that trundling forward with pawns is nowhere near good enough to play the main lines of the Mar Del Plata and similar. 


If the original poster allows the Kings Indian, at some point in the game he's going to have to get his hands dirty with some tactical calculation. It's unpleasant as in the Mal del Plata to know that you get mated if you get it wrong. The Gligoric, Petrosian and Finachetto variations do at least have the advantage, if you can call it such, that it won't be until later in the game that Black will come gunning for you down the f and g files. The h3 systems might be worth considering. It's not a quiet game, but when the threat of .. f5 has been met by g4 and you can still go long with the King, it's Black, not White threatened with disaster on the g file.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #21 - 06/25/14 at 00:36:32
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I played a Black game last month where the line 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 0-0 6 Be2 e5 7 0-0 Nc6 8 d5 Ne7 etc., appeared on the board, with White playing 14 moves of perfect theory and then utterly losing the plot after a long think on the very next move.  I think it must have been 9 Nd2, because White played b4, c5, and cxd6 in some order and the move that occurred after the long think was b4-b5.

I crashed through on the kingside in short order.  My point is that trundling forward with pawns is nowhere near good enough to play the main lines of the Mar Del Plata and similar.  White can and will get rocked every time unless he plans his attack clearly from the beginning; you can't exchange pawns on d6 and then start thinking about what to do next.

I still think White is probably better in these lines - despite being a KID player myself who allows them - but the price of entry is a fair amount of work.  If you don't know all the different attacking structures on the queenside you can find yourself frozen out for much, much too long...
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #20 - 06/24/14 at 16:43:37
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kylemeister wrote on 06/24/14 at 16:21:04:
One of the main lines of the Exchange involves White changing the structure after 9. Bg5 Re8 (the traditional reply, but certainly not the only one) with 10. Nd5. 


I'd imagine boredom would set in fairly rapidly, but studying all the little tactics that can arise in the few moves after the central exchanges could be a practical weapon. It's not really strategic in the sense of any grand design, just trying to improve  White's position.

Whether that's actually a "solid/positional/quiet variation" as requested by the original poster is another matter as it can be hard work trying to find all the nuances in such positions. In main lines as White you can just trundle forward with pawns and only really need to calculate accurately on the final breakthrough, if at all.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #19 - 06/24/14 at 16:21:04
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RdC wrote on 06/24/14 at 15:39:25:
As far as the Exchange variation is concerned, that's certainly slow, but experienced Kings Indian defenders will have methods of improving their position. One of them is that White having played e4 and c4 leaves the d4 square vulnerable whilst Black isn't so vulnerable on d5 by virtue of being able to play c6. So there are obvious plans of Bc8-g4xf3 and Nb8-d7-f8-e6-d4. I'm not sure of White's obvious plan for playing the ending.


One of the main lines of the Exchange involves White changing the structure after 9. Bg5 Re8 (the traditional reply, but certainly not the only one) with 10. Nd5.  (There is also 10. 0-0-0; I recall a game Nei-Tal in which after 10...h6 11. Be3 c6 12. Ne1 Be6, Edmar Mednis thought White would be slightly better with 13. Nc2 followed by Rd2 and Rhd1.)
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #18 - 06/24/14 at 15:39:25
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OrangeCounty wrote on 06/24/14 at 03:04:37:
(Really any answer other than "The Exchange Variation" is probably fine.)

But it doesn't matter.  At any level under about 2000, the value of a "normal" opening edge is nil, because the number of and severity of errors will probably swamp such a minor advantage anyway.  That means that it is a lot more important to be able to get something comfortable than to get something "good".


It's a characteristic of many Kings Indian positions that White will get and maintain an edge from the opening. The reason why it remains popular for Black at lower levels of skill is that it offers a lot of scope for White to lose control in the critical period between moves 20 and 40.

As far as the Exchange variation is concerned, that's certainly slow, but experienced Kings Indian defenders will have methods of improving their position. One of them is that White having played e4 and c4 leaves the d4 square vulnerable whilst Black isn't so vulnerable on d5 by virtue of being able to play c6. So there are obvious plans of Bc8-g4xf3 and Nb8-d7-f8-e6-d4. I'm not sure of White's obvious plan for playing the ending.
  
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