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Poll Question: Whats the most solid/quiet/positional variation of the KID?



« Created by: Marc Benford on: 06/23/14 at 20:34:48 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Good books about the KID from White's perspective? (Read 22823 times)
OrangeCounty
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #17 - 06/24/14 at 03:04:37
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I agree with the comments about rating levels and opening relevance throughout, but in answer to the original question, I think that the Petrosian variation probably fits the bill best, so that's how I answered the poll.

(Really any answer other than "The Exchange Variation" is probably fine.)

But it doesn't matter.  At any level under about 2000, the value of a "normal" opening edge is nil, because the number of and severity of errors will probably swamp such a minor advantage anyway.  That means that it is a lot more important to be able to get something comfortable than to get something "good".

[That said, I play the Catalan myself at just over 2000, so there it is.]
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #16 - 06/23/14 at 22:43:32
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kylemeister wrote on 06/23/14 at 19:29:38:
I guess I'll go ahead and say that I find the idea of a 1500 player buying 1200 pages pertaining to such things as Catalans and Fianchetto KIDs pretty mind-boggling.

You are not the only one. Good grief. Catalan needs a lower rating limit attached. Say, 2400?
1500 level - forward, turn right. Open games would be better.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #15 - 06/23/14 at 21:39:33
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Marc Benford wrote on 06/23/14 at 20:34:48:
I think I've said just yesterday on my other thread about 1.Nf3 that I'm 1800, not 1500.


I wasn't referring to you there.  But here's a kind of thing I continue to wonder:  if you have reached even 1800 in something like USCF or FIDE, do you not have some general knowledge about, and inclination/disinclination towards, various openings/variations arising from, for example, studying a variety of annotated games?  Instead it seems to be all, Opening Explorer says this, Houdini says that, Wikipedia says ...

Maybe it's a sign of the times.  Feel free to ignore me and set up your next poll about which line ranks highest in abstract attributes x, y and z or whatever.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #14 - 06/23/14 at 20:34:48
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It seems that instead of asking for a book that gives a solid/positional/quiet repertoire, I should have first maybe asked what solid/positional/quiet variation I should play.

Based on the previous answers, and some research that I made with the help of Wikipedia, here are the top choices for the most solid, positional, slow, strategic, quiet and closed variations:
- Gligoric System 7.Be3
- Petrosian System 7.d5
- Exchange Variation 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8
- Fianchetto Variation: 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.g3
- Averbakh Variation: 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5
- Hungarian Variation: 5.Nge2
- Sämisch Variation: 5.f3

(maybe I've forgotten some, so don't hesitate to suggest me other variations)

But, someone pointed out something that I should have mentionned earlier: actually I want to be able to play this variation both by beginning with 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 and by beginning with 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4

So if I am not mistaken the Averbakh Variation does not fit this condition. (or is it somehow possible to play it by beginning with 1. Nf3 ?)

The same goes for the Hungarian Variation.

Someone pointed out the Sämisch Variation. But if I recall correctly, I read on Wikipedia that it was most of the time sharp and tactical, not what I am looking for. And it's also impossible to play this one by beginning with 1. Nf3

So we can eliminate these 3 variations.

There are only 4 variations left:
- Gligoric System 7.Be3
- Petrosian System 7.d5
- Exchange Variation 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8
- Fianchetto Variation: 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.g3

So which one of these 4 variations tends to lead (on average) to the most solid, positional, slow, strategic, quiet and closed positions?

I also made a poll. But I still prefer true written answers over simple votes =)




Edit:
Quote:
I guess I'll go ahead and say that I find the idea of a 1500 player buying 1200 pages pertaining to such things as Catalans and Fianchetto KIDs pretty mind-boggling.
I think I've said just yesterday on my other thread about 1.Nf3 that I'm 1800, not 1500.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #13 - 06/23/14 at 19:29:38
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I guess I'll go ahead and say that I find the idea of a 1500 player buying 1200 pages pertaining to such things as Catalans and Fianchetto KIDs pretty mind-boggling.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #12 - 06/23/14 at 19:23:06
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RoleyPoley wrote on 06/23/14 at 19:00:51:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/23/14 at 05:07:15:
I think that Wojo's Weapons is an absolutely excellent didactic book.



Looking at reviews, and seeing your comments make me want to get these books...but the reviews suggest they are for playing strength above 1800+...would you ever recommend them to players below that level (and havent played those positions as white before?)


Absolutely, I think that anyone can learn from them.  They're very instructive, and personally I think that any serious student would benefit from them.  In fact they're probably better suited for players in the 1600-2000 rating range, and offer as much middlegame instruction as opening.  Though I know a lot of 2200+ players that could really use the middlegame instruction, as well.

Reminds me a bit of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U15QgTKHMJ8

GM Hungaski made what I think of as an elementary positional error in that game, and he was rated 2366 at the time.  I think that the Wojo's Weapons series are better suited as middlegame manuals than opening manuals, especially the one on the King's Indian.  You'll likely switch lines around later, but you'll get a very good grounding in how to play those positions in general, which is what the vast majority of players actually need (obsession with "theory" notwithstanding).
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #11 - 06/23/14 at 19:00:51
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/23/14 at 05:07:15:
I think that Wojo's Weapons is an absolutely excellent didactic book.



Looking at reviews, and seeing your comments make me want to get these books...but the reviews suggest they are for playing strength above 1800+...would you ever recommend them to players below that level (and havent played those positions as white before?)
  

"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '"

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #10 - 06/23/14 at 16:34:32
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One line that I have a serious soft spot for is:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. g4


It's not as crazy as it looks, and basically aims to block up the kingside before Black can do any real damage there, then win on the queenside.  I think that Black has to be well prepared not to fall into a strategically terrible position, and even then the game is not usually as sharp as the Mar Del Plata or some other lines.  Here's one of the earlier games that shows the strategic idea in an ideal form:




This game was also critical in showing the viability of the system, i.e. that the pawn on g5 wasn't going to simply be lost without compensation:





As far as I know there is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, it's just not considered a critical try.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #9 - 06/23/14 at 16:14:29
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nestor wrote on 06/23/14 at 08:17:30:
I quite like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3,

So do I, but because it can become very sharp with White focusing on the right wing. Hence I disagree with

nestor wrote on 06/23/14 at 08:17:30:
would fit the OP's criteria pretty well.


MNb - Almarza Mato,C [E71]
ws H/329 ICCF, 28.08.2012
1-0

  

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #8 - 06/23/14 at 08:17:30
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I quite like 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3, which is covered by John Watson, "A Strategic Chess Opening Repertoire for White". He offers two systems, based on 6.Be3 and 6.Bg5, which are designed to stifle Black's standard counterplay with ...f5. This book gives an overall repertoire based on 1.d4 and 2.c4, not just against the KID, of a type that would fit the OP's criteria pretty well.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #7 - 06/23/14 at 07:36:52
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I recall Kaufman in 'The Kaufman Repertoire for Black and White' recommended 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.Be3 as a way of avoiding the Mar del Plata, and it seems an especially effective choice at the amateur level (Black can equalise, but he has to be accurate and have a strong understanding of the structure after 8...Re8 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.h3). The only other sharp line for Black is 7...exd4, but in my view White gets a very comfortable advantage if he is well prepared there. I might add that one advantage of the Samisch and Fianchetto (two of the most solid answers to the KID) is that you can avoid the pure Grunfeld with 3.f3/3.g3. On the other hand, by choosing a line with Nf3, it makes life easy if you want to play a 1.Nf3 move order to avoid the Grunfeld, Nimzo and Queen's Indian.

The Averbakh is definitely a solid choice for White too. There is the Gligoric as well, where your king is generally very safe. Even the h3 systems are quite solid despite their sharp appearance as if you stop Black's ...f5 (which is the basic idea) it is very hard for Black to take the initiative.

There are lots of options for White that fit your criteria - I'd say the Samisch would be the easiest to understand for a club player. Quite a few of the above lines require a very strong overall chess understanding. Schandorff recommends it in his 'Beating the Indian Defences'.
  

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #6 - 06/23/14 at 05:07:15
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I think that Wojo's Weapons is an absolutely excellent didactic book.

P.s. posting from a mobile really sucks here for some reason.
  
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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #5 - 06/23/14 at 00:55:11
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P.S. As far as "solid, positional, slow, strategic, quiet and closed positions" goes, the Averbakh (5.Be2/6.Bg5) is the most solid of the ones I just mentioned. Though if you look at Kornev's book, you may want to consider the traditional 6...Na6 7.Qd2 or even 7.Qc2!? instead of his 7.f4.

The Fianchetto, covered by Avrukh, Wojo's Weapons and Lemos, is also clearly on the solid side. And the Classical can be played solidly, if you find something playable against 7...Nc6 that's not the Mar del Plata or the most irrational Bayonet positions.
  

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #4 - 06/22/14 at 21:38:10
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Speaking of the Averbakh, this is also the recommendation in the very recent "A Practical White Repertoire with 1.d4 and 2.c4", Vol. 2, by Kornev. Apart from also covering lines against the Grünfeld, Modern, Pirc etc., it seems to fit the bill quite well. Though I notice that he gives the sharp 6...Na6 7.f4!?, so it's not all peace and quiet.

There's also lots of material out there on the Sämisch from White's point of view. I've been relying on the books by Ward and Svetushkin (the latter with a 3.f3 "Anti-Grünfeld" move order) - Sämisch positions really appeal to me, but I'm never sure if White gets any advantage objectively.

There's also an Anti-Grünfeld + Sämisch book out by GM/computer expert Larry Kaufmann covering much of the same ground as Svetushkin, but I haven't seen it yet.

Btw. "Easy guide to the Nge2 King's Indian" that was mentioned is a nice little book - I played that line for a while before I switched to the Sämisch and 4PA. Black has some annoying, but rare early ...h5 move orders that I never found anything I really liked against.
  

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Re: Good books about the KID from White's perspective?
Reply #3 - 06/22/14 at 20:49:02
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Marc Benford wrote on 06/22/14 at 15:34:09:
Hello.

I am looking for good books about the Kings Indian Defense, but from the point of view of White only.

I would also prefer a repertoire book that tries to go into solid, positional, slow, strategic, quiet and closed positions. Not sharp and tactical ones.


Margeir Petursson, King's Indian Defense: Averbakh Variation. Not a repertoire book per se, but Petursson is clear about what he thinks are White's best lines.
  
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