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Poll Question: What is Black's best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
bars   pie

3...e6    
  2 (6.1%)
3...c5    
  15 (45.5%)
3...Bf5    
  5 (15.2%)
3...Bg4    
  4 (12.1%)
3...g6    
  5 (15.2%)
3...c6    
  1 (3.0%)
Other    
  1 (3.0%)




Total votes: 33
« Created by: Anonymous3 on: 06/28/14 at 21:02:31 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 (Read 18371 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #26 - 08/06/16 at 00:53:24
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Speaking of other queen pawn stuff, some of the "book" lines have involved Be2 instead of Bd3, with a kind of reversed Tartakower.  This sort of thing -- 4...cd 5. ed Nc6 6. Bb2 Bg4 7. Nbd2 e6 8. Be2 (which perhaps unsurprisingly has been given as leading to equality) -- might remind some of a recent thread here.
  
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RdC
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #25 - 08/05/16 at 09:50:29
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RdC wrote on 06/29/14 at 11:39:27:
One strong idea against the Colle, if you are allowed it, is to handle the position as if you were White in a Queens Gambit. So you seize the initiative and challenge your opponent to equalise. This would have to be introduced either by 3. .. Bg4 or by 3. .. c5.



I don't normally play the move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5, but reviewing previous games by a recent opponent, the reply 3. e3 seemed very likely.

So the game continued with the plan as recommended.



which an engine assesses as marginally in Black' favour.

4. c4 is possible and objectively best, but is it likely if White is a Colle specialist with limited knowledge of other queen pawn or even king pawn stuff (Panov v Caro)?
  
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FischerTal
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #24 - 08/17/14 at 07:54:45
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The OP 's. research is interesting that repertoire books presumably written by  IM or GM for club players who will face the Colle and othe D pawn specials fairly frequently have 6 different suggestions.
The poll reveals a clear preference for c5.
In my experience one is as likely to face a D pawn special as a d4 c4 Nc3 player so it is possible to let the tail wag the dog and pick one's mainstream defence as that which follows from what one considers the best anti D pawn special lines
  
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #23 - 07/04/14 at 11:28:09
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 06/29/14 at 08:02:13:
Bibs wrote on 06/28/14 at 22:53:41:
Should Moderators be stricter? Should the more obviously ridiculous questions (there have been several of late) be deleted?
Questions about move 3 and 4 appear unhelpful. The whole 'most quiet, solid' thing was particularly dreary.
What do members think?


I don't think stricter measures are necessary. It's not like posts take up all space on this board.
I agree though that "the best" is not the right question here, which I indicated in my first post. The thread would be way more helpful to the OP and all other users if the thread topic were "I play the Tarrasch against 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3; what is the most suitable response to the colle" or something like that. Actually adjusting your repertoire choices against the d pawn specials when chosing a system against d4 can be very annoying/time consuming but actually is a vital part of preperation given the fact that the d pawn specials are very common at club level.
So, all in all I think that this thread could be filled with valuable information. But as RoleyPoley said, there is no answer to the original question. It depends which lines you want to reach against other d pawn special and against the d4 mainline ...


As said by Pale Horse, Pale Rider, the choice of answer to 1.d4 should inform the choice. I am often surprised by how little repsect or thought is given to this type of choice by players even up to 2200. As I think John Cox wrote, the key is recognising that they are serious attempts. The Colle in particular can develop into a strong attack aginst the d5 / Nf6 / c5 / e6 kind of set-ups. For me the appropriate, not best, answer is 3..., Bf5 heading for a Slav kind of position.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #22 - 07/04/14 at 09:44:27
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The Moderator responded to dfan and kylemeister. Certainly A3 has been responsible for time-wasting here, earlier. That taken into account, inevitably, but no 'vendetta':
a) I do not think we have ever met, though I guess I would not know!
b) I have no emotional investment here - it is a forum about a board game

Any complaints, please take to Tony K.

People discuss chess theory, ask questions relating to chess theory, all is well.
Questions that appear unrelated to theory, that is a problem.
A3 - please ask about theory. I find it surprising that what is and is not theory appears baffling for some.

Time to lock the thread?
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #21 - 07/04/14 at 08:32:12
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I'm not surprised one bit that the only people that have a real problem with this thread are Bibs and MNb (due to their personal vendetta against me due to past history on this forum)
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #20 - 06/29/14 at 23:10:53
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It means they have to play logical chess, move by move, rather than mechanically play their system.

Personally I like the reverse Reti against all of that stuff. From left to right on Black's viewpoint, you play Nf6, g6, Bg7, O-O, d6, Nbd7, c5, b6 and Bb7. You then decide where the Queen and Rooks should live. There are several choices. [/quote]

Via a different move order, the was R.Palliser's recommendation in How to Play against 1.d4.
  
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #19 - 06/29/14 at 22:33:49
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Glenn Snow wrote on 06/29/14 at 13:57:54:
Getting back to theory, the early ...c5 move-orders have been known to be an annoyance to Colle, London and to some extent Torre system for some time.  It makes them commit earlier than they would like to.


It means they have to play logical chess, move by move, rather than mechanically play their system.

Personally I like the reverse Reti against all of that stuff. From left to right on Black's viewpoint, you play Nf6, g6, Bg7, O-O, d6, Nbd7, c5, b6 and Bb7. You then decide where the Queen and Rooks should live. There are several choices.
  
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #18 - 06/29/14 at 13:57:54
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I'll admit the question is worded poorly, but the fact that it's on move three seems rather irrelevant to me.  In this particular position this is a rather big decision with some important implications.  The biggest distraction to the thread has been whether or not it belongs here.  Getting back to theory, the early ...c5 move-orders have been known to be an annoyance to Colle, London and to some extent Torre system for some time.  It makes them commit earlier than they would like to.
  
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #17 - 06/29/14 at 13:12:07
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Anonymous3 wrote on 06/28/14 at 23:56:18:
Geez, I just thought I would start a fun poll to see what people think the best response to the Colle is here.

You thought wrongly. Answering bad questions is not fun, especially if you leave the most important option out: "there is no best response". Like Dfan wrote the good question is

"What move do you play in this situation and why?".
  

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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #16 - 06/29/14 at 11:39:27
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider wrote on 06/29/14 at 08:02:13:
It depends which lines you want to reach against other d pawn special and against the d4 mainline ...


One strong idea against the Colle, if you are allowed it, is to handle the position as if you were White in a Queens Gambit. So you seize the initiative and challenge your opponent to equalise. This would have to be introduced either by 3. .. Bg4 or by 3. .. c5. I think the specialist books on the Colle recommend the approach of chasing the g4 Bishop away with h3 and g4, rather than allowing that transposition. On 3. .. c5, an  immediate or deferred c4 takes you back into mainstream d4 d5 stuff, so someone with a broad knowledge might find use of a Colle move order an advantage.

Playing 3. .. g6 can be an attempt to reach the  e3 lines of the Gruenfeld, or alternatively a reverse Catalan. An early b4 is an interesting way to play for white, making .. c5 more difficult to play.
  
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Pale Horse, Pale Rider
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #15 - 06/29/14 at 08:02:13
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Bibs wrote on 06/28/14 at 22:53:41:
Should Moderators be stricter? Should the more obviously ridiculous questions (there have been several of late) be deleted?
Questions about move 3 and 4 appear unhelpful. The whole 'most quiet, solid' thing was particularly dreary.
What do members think?


I don't think stricter measures are necessary. It's not like posts take up all space on this board.
I agree though that "the best" is not the right question here, which I indicated in my first post. The thread would be way more helpful to the OP and all other users if the thread topic were "I play the Tarrasch against 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3; what is the most suitable response to the colle" or something like that. Actually adjusting your repertoire choices against the d pawn specials when chosing a system against d4 can be very annoying/time consuming but actually is a vital part of preperation given the fact that the d pawn specials are very common at club level.
So, all in all I think that this thread could be filled with valuable information. But as RoleyPoley said, there is no answer to the original question. It depends which lines you want to reach against other d pawn special and against the d4 mainline ...
  
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #14 - 06/29/14 at 01:06:15
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And where exactly is the high-value, high-level discussion this thread is distracting us from?

Internet forums attract attention-seekers, whether those who like to provoke a response, or those who like to oblige them.

FWIW, I prefer 3...c5.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #13 - 06/29/14 at 00:21:45
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Anonymous3 wrote on 06/28/14 at 23:56:18:
Geez, I just thought I would start a fun poll to see what people think the best response to the Colle is here.


Perhaps chess.com may be a better venue for that.
The site seems to be geared toward discussions of opening theory, more than just repeatedly asked individual whims.
All the overtly low-value, low-level stuff ('what is best at move 3 in lines x,y,z,', 'what should I play in line z?' 'What is best for me as a 1300 who doesn't like moving knights against 1.e4') detracts and distracts from what the site is about.

Member thoughts?
  
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Anonymous3
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Re: Best response after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3
Reply #12 - 06/28/14 at 23:56:18
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Geez, I just thought I would start a fun poll to see what people think the best response to the Colle is here.
  
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