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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up? (Read 26414 times)
RoleyPoley
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #30 - 08/11/17 at 12:30:04
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I think NIC are issuing a new version of their book on the gambit by Moskalenko. That might have some new ground for black?
  

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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #29 - 08/10/17 at 20:29:21
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A game published in Timothy Harding's "MegaCor3" CD. The move 13...Ra6-g6 is covered in Glenn Flear's latest installment from today.

  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #28 - 08/03/14 at 19:31:43
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MNb wrote on 08/03/14 at 14:24:08:
Roeczak wrote on 08/02/14 at 16:41:53:
EDIT: 15...Qe7 (MNb's idea, to not be vulnerable to f4) 16.Nc3 c6 17.Qd4 Be6

MNb gave the improvement 16...d6 17.Nd5 Qd8 in the same comment and asked: how will White make progress?



14...d6 has already being played. This is 13.Rc1 not your 13.Ne4 line (which is indeed nice).
  
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MNb
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #27 - 08/03/14 at 14:24:08
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Roeczak wrote on 08/02/14 at 16:41:53:
EDIT: 15...Qe7 (MNb's idea, to not be vulnerable to f4) 16.Nc3 c6 17.Qd4 Be6

MNb gave the improvement 16...d6 17.Nd5 Qd8 in the same comment and asked: how will White make progress?
  

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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #26 - 08/03/14 at 14:14:47
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That's nice too, although I'm not sure if I would call the final position +=. Nb1 is also more close to equality than white advantage .
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #25 - 08/02/14 at 21:02:19
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maybe Black's best is: 13.Rc1 Qe7 14.c5 d6 15.cxd6 Qxd6 16.Nb3 Qe7 17.Qc2 c6 18.Nd4 Be6 19.Nxe6 Qxe6 +=

edit: 14.Nb1 is an option, which can transpose to 13.Ne4 Qe7 14.Nc3 d6 15.Rc1
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #24 - 08/02/14 at 16:41:53
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Nice lines! Many thanks!

The move e4! in many variations is the center of your idea (useful for many correspondence players, but who would remember OTB?) Therefore what about 17...f5 (no comp availabale right now) or 13...b6

Actually, what does Tim Taylor say?

EDIT: 15...Qe7 (MNb's idea, to not be vulnerable to f4) 16.Nc3 c6 17.Qd4 Be6
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #23 - 08/02/14 at 14:48:46
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Roeczak wrote on 08/02/14 at 14:26:14:
13.Rc1 Qf6 14.b3 (14.b4? Qb2 wins a pawn as far as I can see) d6 15.Ne4 Qe5 16.Nc3 c6 17.Qd2 Bf5 =

losing a pawn is sometimes called a gambit: 14.b4 Qb2 15.Nb3 (or 15.b5 Qxa2 16.c5 Qe6 17.Qa4) Qxa2 (15...d6 16.c5 (or 16.Qc2 Qxc2 17.Rxc2) dxc5 17.Rxc5 c6 18.Rc2 Qf6 19.Qd4 Qe7 20.Rd1 Be6 21.Rcd2) 16.Nd4 Qa6 17.Nb5 Qc6 18.Bf3 Qb6 19.Qd4 Qxd4 20.exd4 this is not fun
the other line: 14.b3 d6 15.Ne4 Qe5 16.Nc3 c6 17.Qd2 Bf5 18.f4 Qe6 (18...Qe7 19.e4 Bxe4 20.f5 Nh4 (20...Nh8 21.Rf4 d5 22.cxd5 Bxd5 23.Nxd5 cxd5 24.Bf3) 21.g3 Nxf5 22.Rf4 +-) 19.Rce1 d5 20.cxd5 cxd5 21.Bf3 Rad8 22.Rd1 (or 22.Bxd5 Qb6 23.Kh1 (or 23.Rf2 Ne7 24.e4 Be6 25.h3) Ne7 24.e4 Nxd5 25.Nxd5 Qd6 26.exf5 Qxd5 27.Qxd5 Rxd5 28.Re7) Ne7 22.Nxd5 Nxd5 23.Bxd5 Qe7 24.Qe2 white's a lot better
black's knight on g6 is just not very well placed
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #22 - 08/02/14 at 14:44:34
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On a lighter note: (Notice how white goes from 2 pawns up to 2 pawns down)


[Site "Free Internet Chess Server"]  [Date "2014"]  [Round "?"]  [White "NN"]  [Black "NorthPawn"]  [Result "0-1"]  [WhiteElo "1934"]  [BlackElo "1975"]  [ECO "A52"]  [TimeControl "30mins+15sec"]    1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 Bb4+ 5. Nd2 d6 6. exd6 Qf6 7. Nh3 Nxf2   8. Kxf2 Bxh3 9. g3 Bxf1 10. dxc7 Nc6 11. Rxf1 O-O 12. Kg2 Rfe8 13. a3 Bd6 14.   Bxd6 Qxd6 15. Nf3 Qxc7 16. Qc2 Ne5 17. Nxe5 Rxe5 18. Rf2 Rae8 19. Kg1 Re4 20.   b3 Qe7 21. Ra2 Re3 22. b4 Qe6 23. c5 h5 24. Qd2 h4 25. gxh4 Qg4+ 26. Kh1 Qxh4   27. Rf3 R3e7 28. e3 Qe4 29. Qg2 Rd8 30. Ra1 Rd3 31. Rg1 g6 32. a4 Rxe3 33.   Rxe3 Qxe3 34. a5 a6 35. Qd5 Kg7 36. Qg2 Re4 37. Qb2+ Kh7 38. Qf6 Rf4 39. Qg5   Qe4+ 40. Qg2 Qxg2+ 41. Rxg2 Rxb4 42. Re2 Rb5 43. Re7 Kg7 44. Kg2 Rxa5 45.Rxb7 Rxc5 0-1

  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #21 - 08/02/14 at 14:26:14
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tony37 wrote on 08/02/14 at 12:48:47:
Roeczak wrote on 08/01/14 at 20:35:04:
Of course I meant 9... 0-0 10.0-0 and only now 10...Ng6 11.Bg3 Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Ne4 Qe5 and now if white is better, at least I cannot see it.

how about something like 13.Rc1 Qf6 (13...b6 14.c5 bxc5 15.Qc2; 13...Qe5 14.Qc2 (14.b4!?) d6 15.Nf3 Qe7 16.Nd4) 14.b3 (14.b4!?) d6 (14...b6 15.c5 Bb7 16.Nf3) 15.Ne4 Qe5 (15...Qd8 16.Nc3 Re8 17.Qd2 planning f4; 15...Qe7 16.Nc3 Re8 17.Qd4 b6 18.Rfd1) 16.Nc3 Bd7 (16...Bf5 17.Qd2 Rad8 18.f4) 17.Qd2 Rad8 18.f4



13.Rc1 Qf6 14.b3 (14.b4? Qb2 wins a pawn as far as I can see) d6 15.Ne4 Qe5 16.Nc3 c6 17.Qd2 Bf5 =
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #20 - 08/02/14 at 14:14:58
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Hello Stigma and thanks for the reply.

After 10.a3! Black must play Bxd2+! (You' ve gotta know your limitations) 11.Qxd2 d6 and although I have no comp right now, I see nothing wrong in Bck'las position after e.g. 12.0-0 Re8 13.Rad1 Ng6 14.Bg3 Bf5 15.b4 b6 16.Qd5 Be4. White may have a slight pull,  but black's position is very solid, which is the trademark of the Budapest; an ultra-solid opening in which black strives for equality (as in all other major openings against 1.d4)
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #19 - 08/02/14 at 12:58:22
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Stigma, thanks for linking to that thread! That was the one I was thinking of. Your idea with a later a3 seems like a very strong one.
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #18 - 08/02/14 at 12:48:47
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Roeczak wrote on 08/01/14 at 20:35:04:
Of course I meant 9... 0-0 10.0-0 and only now 10...Ng6 11.Bg3 Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Ne4 Qe5 and now if white is better, at least I cannot see it.

how about something like 13.Rc1 Qf6 (13...b6 14.c5 bxc5 15.Qc2; 13...Qe5 14.Qc2 (14.b4!?) d6 15.Nf3 Qe7 16.Nd4) 14.b3 (14.b4!?) d6 (14...b6 15.c5 Bb7 16.Nf3) 15.Ne4 Qe5 (15...Qd8 16.Nc3 Re8 17.Qd2 planning f4; 15...Qe7 16.Nc3 Re8 17.Qd4 b6 18.Rfd1) 16.Nc3 Bd7 (16...Bf5 17.Qd2 Rad8 18.f4) 17.Qd2 Rad8 18.f4
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #17 - 08/02/14 at 00:05:01
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MNb wrote on 08/01/14 at 21:15:42:
Roeczak wrote on 08/01/14 at 20:35:04:
Of course I meant 9... 0-0 10.0-0 and only now 10...Ng6 11.Bg3 Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Ne4 Qe5 and now if white is better, at least I cannot see it.

Qe5 is a bit vulnerable if White heads for an attack with f2-f4 and e3-e4. That's why I think 13...Qe7 more precise. Sure White was better after 14.Nc3 c6 15.Qd4 d6 16.Rad1 Rd8 17.f4 Petursson-Bastian, Olympiade 1994. But 14...d6 15.Nd5 Qd8 and how does White make progress? The only downside for Black I can see is that he doesn't have any realistic winning chances.


Instead of 10.0-0, I recommended 10.a3 trying to force a transposition to 7.a3 lines in this older thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1233238304/27

If Black has to exchange on d2, he reaches somewhat depressive main lines where White can rely on his bishop pair to cause problems; Taylor was trying to avoid this in his book. But 10.a3 Bd6 11.Ne4! also looks promising for White. Do you have any improvements, Roeczak?
  

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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #16 - 08/01/14 at 21:15:42
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Roeczak wrote on 08/01/14 at 20:35:04:
Of course I meant 9... 0-0 10.0-0 and only now 10...Ng6 11.Bg3 Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Ne4 Qe5 and now if white is better, at least I cannot see it.

Qe5 is a bit vulnerable if White heads for an attack with f2-f4 and e3-e4. That's why I think 13...Qe7 more precise. Sure White was better after 14.Nc3 c6 15.Qd4 d6 16.Rad1 Rd8 17.f4 Petursson-Bastian, Olympiade 1994. But 14...d6 15.Nd5 Qd8 and how does White make progress? The only downside for Black I can see is that he doesn't have any realistic winning chances.
  

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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #15 - 08/01/14 at 20:35:04
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fling wrote on 07/31/14 at 19:29:30:
Roeczak wrote on 07/31/14 at 17:05:25:
Hello, I am more interested in the mainlines instead of 4...g5?! which can't be sound. Has Taylor's line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 (Any info about 4...Bb4+ 5.Nd2 d6? It seems interesting!) 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 Ng6 10.Bg3 Bd6 11.Bxd6 Qxd6 been refuted?


Isn't White just better after 12. 0-0 0-0 13. Ne4? Or even 10. Bxc7?




Of course I meant 9... 0-0 10.0-0 and only now 10...Ng6 11.Bg3 Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.Ne4 Qe5 and now if white is better, at least I cannot see it.
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #14 - 07/31/14 at 19:52:49
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fling wrote on 07/31/14 at 07:58:28:
Great! I knew I had seen something on it.

I also had a look in two other recent books. It turns out that Korneev and Schandorff both advocate 4. Bf4, but with deviations earlier:

Korneev's line has White not playing h4 early, but instead
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 g5 5. Bg3 Bg7 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Nc3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. e3, with the idea of playing c5!? or h4, depending on Black's reply.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 g5 5. Bg3 Bg7 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. h4 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 and instead of the more common 9. e3, Schandorff gives 9. Nc3.

I think both lines look interesting and more promising for White (but just had a brief look at them today). What about Moskalenko's surveys, do the mention any of these lines?


From browsing the two articles it seems to me that the advantages Moskalenko sees in 4...g5 it that it often surprises the opponent and that White can not play passively.

He also writes that "... it is a very interesting possibility about which there is hardly any theoretical analysis ..."

The other option is however sounder and theoretically OK for Black which however has not prevented Moskalenko from playing 4...g5 himself.

If Moskalenko had to meet 4...g5 himself he would prefer the classical 5.Lg3 (instead of 5.Ld2) and an immediate attack with h2-h4.

For further details, please refer to the articles.
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #13 - 07/31/14 at 19:29:30
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Roeczak wrote on 07/31/14 at 17:05:25:
Hello, I am more interested in the mainlines instead of 4...g5?! which can't be sound. Has Taylor's line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 (Any info about 4...Bb4+ 5.Nd2 d6? It seems interesting!) 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 Ng6 10.Bg3 Bd6 11.Bxd6 Qxd6 been refuted?


Isn't White just better after 12. 0-0 0-0 13. Ne4? Or even 10. Bxc7?
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #12 - 07/31/14 at 19:24:24
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Roeczak wrote on 07/31/14 at 17:05:25:
Therefore we must conclude that the only real problem is 2.Nf3


I am not sure about this, because Jobava won against Wojtaszek (White), even though it looked like Wojtaszek had an edge.
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #11 - 07/31/14 at 17:05:25
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Hello, I am more interested in the mainlines instead of 4...g5?! which can't be sound. Has Taylor's line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.de5 Ng4 4.Bf4 Nc6 (Any info about 4...Bb4+ 5.Nd2 d6? It seems interesting!) 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.e3 Ngxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Be2 Ng6 10.Bg3 Bd6 11.Bxd6 Qxd6 been refuted? I know that against 7.a3 black must take on d2  (wasn't this found here?) and the other line with Nc3/g3 is also not much of a problem (even Qa3 is playable if i recall correctly) so I see no reason to weaken my kingside. Of course Jobava is a lot stronger than me anyway. Wasn't Gelfand beaten by Rapport in the Nf3 line? Therefore we must conclude that the only real problem is 2.Nf3
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #10 - 07/31/14 at 12:10:58
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Roeczak wrote on 07/28/14 at 17:01:06:
Hello everyone!! This is my first post on ChessPub and I'd like to begin with my secondary (for now) defence to 1.d4 2.c4 , the BG (Budapest Gambit) 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 (3..Ne4? 4.a3!)  . . . .  Thanks in advanxe, Roeczak


It may be true that if playing at the very highest level or against a computer that 3.... Ne4 isn't best (certainly not a ? though)  but I think, certainly at my level (172ecf) it is not only playable but no worse than many modern openings.

I have a 100% score with it in competive games against 4 players slightly lower graded than myself and a 50% score (+1 =1 -1) against 3 opponents ranging from 208 to 224ecf

I doubt that I would have bettered those results by playing either a Ng4 line, or for that matter a different defence entirely.

Thanks

Trefor
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #9 - 07/31/14 at 07:58:28
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Great! I knew I had seen something on it.

I also had a look in two other recent books. It turns out that Korneev and Schandorff both advocate 4. Bf4, but with deviations earlier:

Korneev's line has White not playing h4 early, but instead
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 g5 5. Bg3 Bg7 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Nc3 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 9. e3, with the idea of playing c5!? or h4, depending on Black's reply.

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Bf4 g5 5. Bg3 Bg7 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. h4 Ngxe5 8. Nxe5 Nxe5 and instead of the more common 9. e3, Schandorff gives 9. Nc3.

I think both lines look interesting and more promising for White (but just had a brief look at them today). What about Moskalenko's surveys, do the mention any of these lines?
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #8 - 07/31/14 at 07:47:31
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/30/14 at 20:50:48:
fling wrote on 07/30/14 at 17:04:25:
I have mainly prepared the answer recommended in Squeezing the Gambits. I think this line (i.e. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3) was discussed here at Chesspub, by Stefan Bücker amongst others, but I can't find it right now.

I can't find it either. Is the search function defect or something? The post here at chesspub was, basically, a hint that I had written about the line for ChessCafe, when I reviewed Avrukh's second volume. Google for "kaiss57.pdf".


IIrc it's been mentioned that the upgrade of the system has lost the Google search that replaced the forum search. It will probably be reinstated, but for the moment just use the search site:chesspub.com Budapest on Google.
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #7 - 07/30/14 at 20:50:48
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fling wrote on 07/30/14 at 17:04:25:
I have mainly prepared the answer recommended in Squeezing the Gambits. I think this line (i.e. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3) was discussed here at Chesspub, by Stefan Bücker amongst others, but I can't find it right now.

I can't find it either. Is the search function defect or something? The post here at chesspub was, basically, a hint that I had written about the line for ChessCafe, when I reviewed Avrukh's second volume. Google for "kaiss57.pdf".
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #6 - 07/30/14 at 20:35:19
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barnaby wrote on 07/30/14 at 18:55:55:
tony37 wrote on 07/30/14 at 18:21:10:
isn't white just a lot better after 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bg3 Bg7 (5...Nc6 6.h4) 6.h4  ?  (or 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.h4)


theoretically yes but its still a quagmire to navigate and maintain the edge I believe (and have found otb)


The last variation, with 7. h4 is the one I was referring to in the game Wojtaszek-Jobava, 2014, L'ami-Tratar, 2013 and Bodanovich-Sitnikov, 2011. Not very clear, it seems like. It could be interesting to see what Moskalenko thinks of this in the CBM surveys.
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #5 - 07/30/14 at 18:55:55
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tony37 wrote on 07/30/14 at 18:21:10:
isn't white just a lot better after 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bg3 Bg7 (5...Nc6 6.h4) 6.h4  ?  (or 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.h4)


theoretically yes but its still a quagmire to navigate and maintain the edge I believe (and have found otb)
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #4 - 07/30/14 at 18:21:10
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isn't white just a lot better after 4.Bf4 g5 5.Bg3 Bg7 (5...Nc6 6.h4) 6.h4  ?  (or 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.h4)
  
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #3 - 07/30/14 at 17:09:28
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Viktor Moskalenko (VM) have written two opening surveys for ChessBase Magazine (CBM) recently; first  with 4...g5 and in the latest CBM (161) with the variation given in the initial post.
VM feels that black get " ... interesting possibilities in all lines against Sbd2 and can continue fighting for counterplay...".
VM also mentions his book "The faboulous Budapest gambit" (2007) for those who want more details.
  
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fling
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #2 - 07/30/14 at 17:04:25
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I have mainly prepared the answer recommended in Squeezing the Gambits. I think this line (i.e. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3. dxe5 Ng4 4. Nf3) was discussed here at Chesspub, by Stefan Bücker amongst others, but I can't find it right now. Maybe it wasn't even the Budapest but the Albin's countergambit or something. My memory is letting me down on this one...

Anyway, in my notes, I have 4. Bf4 g5, as mentioned by Ludde, as the alternative, obviously. The last top game I've seen in that line is Wojtaszek-Jobava, Tata Steel 2014. Both players played something else than what had previously been played. Here at Chesspub, I noticed that Glenn Flear annotated L'Ami-Tratar, 2013, which featured the interesting move 8. hxg5!? The question is why Wojtaszek did not play this move at all. I also have in my notes the game Bogdanovich-Sitnikov, 2011, which mentions an improvement by Moskalenko that looks ok for Black.

In other words, I am not sure what is the critical line... I know that I would probably not choose 4. Bf4, but rather 4. Nf3 and seek a small edge.
  
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Ludde
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Re: A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
Reply #1 - 07/30/14 at 16:00:54
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I remember seeing somewhere that 4.Bf4 g5!? was considered critical these days. Can't remember exactly where though. The line you mention I have always considered nice for white but it requires a long-term perspective and good patience. It is not like white is going to crash through anytime soon unless black is careless and allows c4-c5 when it is strong.
  
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A52: Budapest Gambit: how is it holding up?
07/28/14 at 17:01:06
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Hello everyone!! This is my first post on ChessPub and I'd like to begin with my secondary (for now) defence to 1.d4 2.c4 , the BG (Budapest Gambit) 1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 (3..Ne4? 4.a3!) How is it faring? If it's good enogh for Rich... My opinion is that the most critical line is 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.a3 in which Black has to give back the Bpair. I've never had any real problem with that though and OTB there's always 4...Bb4+ 5.Nd2 d6!? Please no ''2.Nf3 and no BG'' posts as after 1.e4 there is no BG either. Please forgive me for any typos as I am writing from a dsi. Thanks in advanxe, Roeczak
  
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