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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Wedberg System; 12...Nb6! (Read 10015 times)
gauss
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #16 - 12/01/14 at 03:04:47
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Maybe 12.Rb1!? can be be played after 11...Nxd5. The idea is 12...O-O 13.Ne3, when 13...Nb6 can be met be 14.b3, preventing this ...a4 idea. If 13...Nde7, then white has already committed Rb1, but maybe this is still advantageous.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #15 - 08/11/14 at 02:02:26
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fling wrote on 08/10/14 at 19:45:05:
BPaulsen wrote on 08/09/14 at 21:19:31:
After: 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.a3 d6 7.0-0 a5 (only now)


The obvious question to me is what happens after 7. b4 e4? White has a plus score in the line, but on the other hand, it has only been played a couple of times. It seems like the game Xhao Jue-Duda, 2014, might be good enough for Black, or what do you think?

Regarding the idea in your main line after 13 ...Nd4!, I am pretty sure I have looked at a very similar idea in these lines, but at an earlier stage. I discussed it with a former but I can't remember where I recorded the analysis, lol!

Anyway, the idea with 12 ...Nb6 looks very interesting indeed. I have always played the move order of waiting with ...d6 before castling, but in that case the knight manouevre looks stronger.


7.b4 is basically =+ despite the big score; if White equalizes he is fortunate. It just doesn't work well against 6...d6.

Khalifman may have a point in the Overton-Pirs game, and a tip of the hat to Anders for the contribution. I had discarded the continuation due to coming up with bishops of opposite colors scenarios, but that was just bad due diligence - White doesn't have to allow them.

I'd be interested in how you think Black can improve on the 12...Nde7 continuations. Those simply do not look pleasant for Black; White is the only one playing for anything and Black's position on the light squares usually resembles swiss cheese.

In the interest of full disclosure, this thread is pertaining to what I'd like to be able to recommend as a back-up variation in "Play 1.Nf3!". I am endeavoring to briefly point out other paths I also approve of along the way in the book without doing exhaustive analysis for those; usually just highlighting a critical line or two will suffice.

I'm in the process of developing an almost entirely new approach to the position that is looking promising.
  

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topandkas
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #14 - 08/10/14 at 21:12:49
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fling wrote on 08/10/14 at 21:04:52:
topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 20:55:02:
I take it you mean ..a5+Rb8 or ...a6+b5.


No, I think I meant, ...a6, ...Rb8 and ...b5, or just ...a6+b5 :-D IMO Black is not supposed to go for ...a5 at all as long as White doesn't threaten b4, which is not the case if a3 is not played.


Ahh, yes that makes more sense! Lets make Black play ...a5 then shan't we!? Cheesy
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #13 - 08/10/14 at 21:08:25
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Anders wrote on 08/10/14 at 20:59:27:
Khalifman discusses 12....Nb6 a bit in the second edition (from 2011) of volume 3 (pages 281, 282) in the "Opening for White according to Kramnik" series.

He comments on the move with "...still it would not be so easy for White to counter the new idea 12...Nb6!?.
He goes on to give black anitidotes to 13.Bd2, 13.b3, 13.Ne4, 13.Rb1 and finally concludes that "Whites most principled reaction would be 13.Lxc6!? bxc6 ..." and then mentions another Pirs game (Overton-Pirs, 2009) which have the same moves as in the game Petrovic-Figura mentioned below up until move 19.
Khalifman then gives 20.c5 Nd5 21.Nxd5 Rxd5 22. Ra2 with a small White plus as "... he has good chances to realize the extra pawn in a competetive game".
Engines give a small edge to White following 23.Rb2 e4 24.Nxe4 Lb3 but it seems to me Black seems OK after for example 25.Rd2 Re8 where an ending with opposite coloured bishops may occur after 26.Nd6 Rxd2 27.Nxe8 Rxe2 28. Nxg7 Kxg7. 


Post no. 100  Smiley

Even if this is good for White, I actually think that the "former" main line, following 12 ...Nde7, as in Murin-Kukla, can be improved upon for Black (both Marin's and Khalifman's lines). But this might be a separate topic.
  
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fling
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #12 - 08/10/14 at 21:04:52
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topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 20:55:02:
I take it you mean ..a5+Rb8 or ...a6+b5.


No, I think I meant, ...a6, ...Rb8 and ...b5, or just ...a6+b5 :-D IMO Black is not supposed to go for ...a5 at all as long as White doesn't threaten b4, which is not the case if a3 is not played.
  
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Anders
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #11 - 08/10/14 at 20:59:27
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Khalifman discusses 12....Nb6 a bit in the second edition (from 2011) of volume 3 (pages 281, 282) in the "Opening for White according to Kramnik" series.

He comments on the move with "...still it would not be so easy for White to counter the new idea 12...Nb6!?.
He goes on to give black anitidotes to 13.Bd2, 13.b3, 13.Ne4, 13.Rb1 and finally concludes that "Whites most principled reaction would be 13.Lxc6!? bxc6 ..." and then mentions Overton-Pirs, 2009 given below and suggests s 20.c5 Nd5 21.Nxd5 Rxd5 22. Ra2 with a small White plus as "... he has good chances to realize the extra pawn in a competetive game".
Engines give a small edge to White following 23.Rb2 e4 24.Nxe4 Lb3 but it seems to me Black seems OK after for example 25.Rd2 Re8 where an ending with opposite coloured bishops may occur after 26.Nd6 Rxd2 27.Nxe8 Rxe2 28. Nxg7 Kxg7. 
  
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topandkas
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #10 - 08/10/14 at 20:55:02
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fling wrote on 08/10/14 at 19:50:16:
topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 19:22:43:
BPaulsen wrote on 08/10/14 at 16:24:11:
topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 10:06:59:
I dont know Im no corresponce chess expert but cant White play 6.d3, intending to meet 6...Bg7 with Nf3-d2-f1-e3? It has been my impression that an early a2-a3 by White is no longer urgent when Black break thes symmetry with a move like ...e5. Besides the threat of b4 himself the main idea behind a3 to my mind, is to force Black to break the symmetry that could lead to just flat equality if White doesnt play a3 at precise moment.

The idea of playing a3 is to threaten various b4 ideas and to basically force the inclusion of ...a5 from Black, weakening b5. Without the inclusion his task is simpler, and if done too late it accomplishes nothing.


Yes, you're absoutely right. I'm aware that this is one of the points (too) but guess I was a bit to lazy to make a more elaborate explanation. I still think that a3 is also played to break symmetry (as the strictly symmetrical English is very much =).

And does anyone have any comments to my idea of playing d3 first, intending Nf3-d2-f1-e3 not allowing Black the liberty of playing Be6 himself first!?


I think Vass has commented on this before, giving the game Pereverzev-Gatterer, 2011. The idea is mainly that Black can play e.g. ...a6 an ...Rb8, or just go for the reverse sac with ...a6 and ...b5. If White meets this with a4, Black gets b4, and can that way control d5. Another idea is to set up the battery ...Be6 and ...Qd7, play ...Bh3 to swap the light-squared bishop and after that remove any piece that lands on d5.


I take it you mean ..a5+Rb8 or ...a6+b5.
As for the first option I think White has gotten exactly what he was looking for if he manages to both make Black play ...a5 and he is not allowed to play ...d5 either.
And as for the second option, this is one of the reasons Im not a huge fan of playing Nf3 too soon. This way of playing is not possible with Bg2 instead of Nf3.
But I guess I have my own idea of specific move orders to use, that others may not agree with.
  
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fling
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #9 - 08/10/14 at 19:50:16
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topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 19:22:43:
BPaulsen wrote on 08/10/14 at 16:24:11:
topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 10:06:59:
I dont know Im no corresponce chess expert but cant White play 6.d3, intending to meet 6...Bg7 with Nf3-d2-f1-e3? It has been my impression that an early a2-a3 by White is no longer urgent when Black break thes symmetry with a move like ...e5. Besides the threat of b4 himself the main idea behind a3 to my mind, is to force Black to break the symmetry that could lead to just flat equality if White doesnt play a3 at precise moment.

The idea of playing a3 is to threaten various b4 ideas and to basically force the inclusion of ...a5 from Black, weakening b5. Without the inclusion his task is simpler, and if done too late it accomplishes nothing.


Yes, you're absoutely right. I'm aware that this is one of the points (too) but guess I was a bit to lazy to make a more elaborate explanation. I still think that a3 is also played to break symmetry (as the strictly symmetrical English is very much =).

And does anyone have any comments to my idea of playing d3 first, intending Nf3-d2-f1-e3 not allowing Black the liberty of playing Be6 himself first!?


I think Vass has commented on this before, giving the game Pereverzev-Gatterer, 2011. The idea is mainly that Black can play e.g. ...a6 an ...Rb8, or just go for the reverse sac with ...a6 and ...b5. If White meets this with a4, Black gets b4, and can that way control d5. Another idea is to set up the battery ...Be6 and ...Qd7, play ...Bh3 to swap the light-squared bishop and after that remove any piece that lands on d5.
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #8 - 08/10/14 at 19:48:57
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topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 19:22:43:
And does anyone have any comments to my idea of playing d3 first, intending Nf3-d2-f1-e3 not allowing Black the liberty of playing Be6 himself first!?


Well, it has been a "book" possibility; I see it in ECO and Carsten Hansen's The Symmetrical English (both from the early 2000s) ...
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #7 - 08/10/14 at 19:45:05
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/09/14 at 21:19:31:
After: 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.a3 d6 7.0-0 a5 (only now)


The obvious question to me is what happens after 7. b4 e4? White has a plus score in the line, but on the other hand, it has only been played a couple of times. It seems like the game Xhao Jue-Duda, 2014, might be good enough for Black, or what do you think?

Regarding the idea in your main line after 13 ...Nd4!, I am pretty sure I have looked at a very similar idea in these lines, but at an earlier stage. I discussed it with a former but I can't remember where I recorded the analysis, lol!

Anyway, the idea with 12 ...Nb6 looks very interesting indeed. I have always played the move order of waiting with ...d6 before castling, but in that case the knight manouevre looks stronger.
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #6 - 08/10/14 at 19:22:43
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/10/14 at 16:24:11:
topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 10:06:59:
I dont know Im no corresponce chess expert but cant White play 6.d3, intending to meet 6...Bg7 with Nf3-d2-f1-e3? It has been my impression that an early a2-a3 by White is no longer urgent when Black break thes symmetry with a move like ...e5. Besides the threat of b4 himself the main idea behind a3 to my mind, is to force Black to break the symmetry that could lead to just flat equality if White doesnt play a3 at precise moment.

The idea of playing a3 is to threaten various b4 ideas and to basically force the inclusion of ...a5 from Black, weakening b5. Without the inclusion his task is simpler, and if done too late it accomplishes nothing.


Yes, you're absoutely right. I'm aware that this is one of the points (too) but guess I was a bit to lazy to make a more elaborate explanation. I still think that a3 is also played to break symmetry (as the strictly symmetrical English is very much =).

And does anyone have any comments to my idea of playing d3 first, intending Nf3-d2-f1-e3 not allowing Black the liberty of playing Be6 himself first!?
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #5 - 08/10/14 at 18:25:09
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/10/14 at 16:44:58:
My non-expert opinion is that White should postpone his long-winded knight maneuver, i.e. 8.d3 Nge7 9.Rb1 0-0 and now maybe 10.Bd2 or 10.Bg5!?, but again I'm not too impressed with White's chances.


In my role as the forum's historian (or so I was once dubbed by BPaulsen) I'll mention that this reminds me of Evans-Karpov 1972, which saw 10. Bd2, and I seem to recall John Watson being inclined toward Bg5 in such positions in the 1980s incarnation of his 1. c4 c5 book ...
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #4 - 08/10/14 at 16:44:58
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9.Nd5 with the idea of avoiding moving the d-pawn doesn't seem to lead anywhere, i.e. 9...Nge7 10.Nc2 0-0 11.Rb1 Rb8 and if 12.b4 then Black is getting in ...b5! either before or after taking once on b4.

I've never personally been impressed with this line for White (though I don't know it well at all).  I just feel that he spends so much time with his knight that Black should be fine.  I presume that one of the ideas of 12...Nb6 is to cover a4, i.e. 13.Rb1 a4! and Black is fine. 

The only other idea (which I'm sure everyone is aware of) that I see off the top of my head would be putting the knight on a4 instead of e4, either 13.Na4 or 13.Bxc6+ bc 14.Na4, but again Black seems fine.  So perhaps 13.Bd2!? and play a game of chess.  But here the computer immediately points out 13...Nd4! which if Black can get away with does look strong.

My non-expert opinion is that White should postpone his long-winded knight maneuver, i.e. 8.d3 Nge7 9.Rb1 0-0 and now maybe 10.Bd2 or 10.Bg5!?, but again I'm not too impressed with White's chances.

  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #3 - 08/10/14 at 16:24:11
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topandkas wrote on 08/10/14 at 10:06:59:
I dont know Im no corresponce chess expert but cant White play 6.d3, intending to meet 6...Bg7 with Nf3-d2-f1-e3? It has been my impression that an early a2-a3 by White is no longer urgent when Black break thes symmetry with a move like ...e5. Besides the threat of b4 himself the main idea behind a3 to my mind, is to force Black to break the symmetry that could lead to just flat equality if White doesnt play a3 at precise moment.

The idea of playing a3 is to threaten various b4 ideas and to basically force the inclusion of ...a5 from Black, weakening b5. Without the inclusion his task is simpler, and if done too late it accomplishes nothing.
  

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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #2 - 08/10/14 at 10:06:59
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I dont know Im no corresponce chess expert but cant White play 6.d3, intending to meet 6...Bg7 with Nf3-d2-f1-e3? It has been my impression that an early a2-a3 by White is no longer urgent when Black break thes symmetry with a move like ...e5. Besides the threat of b4 himself the main idea behind a3 to my mind, is to force Black to break the symmetry that could lead to just flat equality if White doesnt play a3 at precise moment.
  
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Re: Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
Reply #1 - 08/10/14 at 06:33:00
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Well, it seems like this 12...Nb6! move is "cooked" by a well known ICCF player, GM Matjaz Pirs https://www.iccf.com/player?id=480232 - very creative player and a good Anti-Sicilian expert whom I have to play against in a forthcoming ICCF tournament. Just to say that I wonder which opening to choose against him (as a first player) for 15 days and I'm still not decided!
I tried to collect all the games with this 12...Nb6! move. And let me say, I'm not surprised that a move like 12...Nb6 can "refute" such a long Nf3-e1-c2-e3 manoeuvre which, though sophisticated, is somehow against the common rules of piece development in chess.



EDIT: By the way, there are many well known established opening setups which are under the microscopic correspondence chess players eyes. Moves like this 12...Nb6 are practically almost everywhere - some are "unveiled" and some are not. Wink
For example, books for Sicilian English Attack and Poisoned Pawn variations couldn't do without a close inquiry of the correspondence chess practice. Claiming equality where there is not (proved by a 100% result in a specific subvariation out of 5 or 6 games, for example) and vice versa, could crash the otherwise decent efforts of a good author.
  
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Wedberg System; 12...Nb6!
08/09/14 at 21:19:31
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Quoting the user Tolotos who was the first to bring this bombshell to my attention in a thread, and it never got any discussion.

Quote:
Maybe it´s a better move order for black to play d6,Be6 first (attacking the c4-pawn to force d3)
1.c4 c5 2.g3 Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.Nf3 e5 6.0-0 d6 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7

Last Saturday I faced an interesting new move in the Botvinnik:

1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 d6 6.0-0 Bg7 7.a3 a5 8.Ne1 Be6 9.d3 Nge7 10.Nc2 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Ne3 and now my opponent played 12...Nb6!? (instead of Nde7)  13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Ne4 c4 15.dxc4 0-0 16.c5 Nd7 17.Qd6 Re8 18.Qxc6 Rc8 19.Db5 Rb8 20.Qa6 Ra8 21.Qb5 Rb8 22.Qa6 Ra8 draw agreed


I'd like to focus people to this area, because it represents a critical position for the whole 3...e5 4.g3 complex of the Symmetrical English.

Black has employed the very precise 6...d6 move order, meeting a3 with ...a5 only after White castles. Doing so, he keeps open the critical ...Be6 gaining a tempo off the c-pawn when White plays Ne1 while also avoiding b4 shenanigans.

After: 1.Nf3 c5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 e5 4.g3 g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.a3 d6 7.0-0 a5 (only now) 8.Ne1 (8.d3 Nge7 is likely to head to the same place after 9.Ne1 Be6 10.Nc2, etc., unless White wants to play around with 9.Bg5 or 9.Bd2, neither of which are particularly troublesome) Be6 9.d3 Nge7 10.Nc2 d5 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Ne3, supposedly best for both sides these days, here comes 12...Nb6!

12...Nb6 is a very big deal, because White had been making real progress against the routine 12...Nde7 such as in Murin-Kukla, E-Mail 2011. 13.Bxc6 (13.Na4 Nxa4 14.Bxc6 bxc6 15.Qxa4 was Howell-Negi and Black soon drew effortlessly, while 13.Ne4 Qe7 14.Qc2 c4! resulted in a draw after a long engine-inspired sequence in Sapunjiev-Pirs, E-Mail 2009, that was basically impossible for either side to deviate from) has been played in most of the games to reach the position, but with depressing results for White. After 13...bxc6 14.Ne4 c4 15.dxc4 (15.Nxc4 Nxc4 16.dxc4 0-0 17.Nd6 was something I investigated, but the engine points out the very precise 17...c5! 18.Qd3 Qb6 19.Nb5 a4! and Black will eventually regain his pawn by taking on c4 followed by ...Qxb5 after a further ...Rfb8) 0-0! Black has found a pair of paths to equality against both 16.b3/Qxd8 and achieved the lone decisive result after 16.c5 in Seifert-Kogoj, E-Mail 2009, when White's overreliance on the engine did him in.

Backtracking a bit, should White try 13.Bd2, then 13...Nd4! gives Black great activity at the cost of his b-pawn after 14.Bxb7 Rb8 and making use of the hole on b3 and gaining space with ...f5. White's Ne3 is truly awkward and the Nb6 does a great job policing c4.

13.Rb1 would be standard, but then another point of Black's previous is revealed - 13...a5! and now 14.Bxc6!? bxc6 15.Ne4 Bb3 16.Qe1 c4 is a bit messy, but probably no worse for Black.

Anyone want to contribute?
  

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