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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White? (Read 16286 times)
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #20 - 05/15/16 at 12:33:33
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I'm surprised noone has mentioned 10.Ba3 (unless I skipped over it), which Kasparov tried against So last month, and has also been tried in 2500+ correspondence. I think it might have a bit of potential, though probably that's just because it hasn't been analysed to death yet.
https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/ultimate-blitz-challenge-garry-kas...
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #19 - 12/05/14 at 21:42:43
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I think Nikos was referring to the PANFR line iirc. I think Black is equal in places in a few places, but play is rich - far richer (personal opinion of course) here than in the endgame variations after Qf3, etc. The downside is that they're a bit sharper and more dangerous - just depends on your disposition and inclination to study such variations.
  
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PANFR
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #18 - 12/05/14 at 19:48:26
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tony37 wrote on 12/04/14 at 12:29:40:
my guess is 5...Bb6 6.Nc3 d6 7.Qe2 Nge7 8.Be3 O-O 9.O-O-O f5
(although I now see that 10.f4 fxe4 11.g3 may cause some problems)

another option is 5...Bb6 6.Nc3 d6 7.Qe2 Be6 8.Be3 Nf6 9.O-O-O Qe7 10.f3 (10.g3 O-O) O-O-O


Your first line is scrutinized at the Negi Scotch DVD. Maybe equal, maybe not... but certainly not "no play for white".
Your second line is certainly interesting, but still rich in possibilities. I guess Nikos was not referring to that one...
  
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #17 - 12/04/14 at 12:29:40
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my guess is 5...Bb6 6.Nc3 d6 7.Qe2 Nge7 8.Be3 O-O 9.O-O-O f5
(although I now see that 10.f4 fxe4 11.g3 may cause some problems)

another option is 5...Bb6 6.Nc3 d6 7.Qe2 Be6 8.Be3 Nf6 9.O-O-O Qe7 10.f3 (10.g3 O-O) O-O-O
  
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #16 - 12/04/14 at 11:02:20
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/14/14 at 21:46:15:
But 4...Bc5 5.Nb3 has been neutralised completely! There is no play for White at all!


My guess is that you're hinting the line 5...Bb6 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Bg5 0-0, followed by ...Nd4 after either Qf3 or Qe2. Right?
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #15 - 08/15/14 at 04:37:16
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Perhaps, but no one knows that yet.

Grin
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #14 - 08/14/14 at 21:46:15
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But 4...Bc5 5.Nb3 has been neutralised completely! There is no play for White at all!
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #13 - 08/14/14 at 19:28:24
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Maybe my taste is clouding my judgment, I really can't say. All I see here is an ending I'm unlikely to win against someone of equal strength! Again, my issue is not that this variation is not good for White or anything, just that I'm not in love with clarifying the position so early and reaching this ending regularly. There's just less play than I'd like when compared to 4...Bc5 5.Nb3!?.
  
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #12 - 08/14/14 at 17:37:45
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Stockfish likes to play ...a5 and ...c5 and let the light-squared bishops get exchanged. White will put the king at d3 and most likely the rooks will be exchanged down the e-file. I cannot see why the knight shouldn't be better than the bishop in this kind of position. I don't say that White is winning, but he is certainly in no way worse and may even be theoretically slightly better.

Probably Black shouldn't go ...Nd4+ that easily, but White goes again Rg1, g3 and maybe even Bh3.

Don't know Tony, i really like White here... I have at least the better structure and so i can pretend that i am playing for something and this ...Nd4+ plan is not simple either. I then pretend to have the better minor piece!  Cheesy
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #11 - 08/14/14 at 17:04:11
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After a quick think, Stockfish likes 19.Rg1 a5, presumably stopping b4 and looking to offload that a-pawn at some point.
  
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #10 - 08/13/14 at 23:20:57
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I like 17.Kc2 and if 17...Nd4 18.Bxd4 followed by 19.Rg1. I think that the knight is better than the bishop (OK, in that corr game you posted White was not able to prove this, but this situation might be a bit different).
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #9 - 08/13/14 at 17:40:43
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Let's start with 9.Nd2 O-O-O. In my main ending, do you agree this is the critical line? What are you trying on move 17? There's at least 17.Be2, 17.Bd3, or 17.Kc2. Perhaps it doesn't matter that much. The latter seems the most flexible at first glance.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #8 - 08/13/14 at 17:23:07
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Your point is correct and the example with the Rook endgame is not out of place, but consider this similar example.

What about the 4 vs 3 +Rook endgame? (the 3vs 2 is easier and doesn't belong to this category) How to call this? It is certainly "=" but players like Kasparov have lost it. Or what about some endgames say with 3-3 +a pawn at the a-file and a Rook each? Maybe still, the defending side knows how to draw tis endgame but everybody will still lose some positions like this. In an endgame, you can be objective and certainand say it is "=", but in a middlegame you cannot do that and say it is "+/=". You still say the same thing: "it is a draw" but "i cannot guarantee it! You have to play some good moves to get there!"

Dont' worry. I'll come up with some moves later. I am just waiting for someone else to start proposing stuff!  Smiley
  
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #7 - 08/13/14 at 17:12:13
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I generally agree with your definition. But there's some subjectivity to what "better moves" looks like to one person or another, and how difficult it is to play the position for either color depends on the person who's got to play it. Using a definition that requires some knowledge of "chess truth" to discern which side needs to play the better moves, etc, is weird. One might call a drawn, pawn up rook ending slightly better for White, but it doesn't matter if the defender playing Black knows how to draw it with literally no effort, i.e. he's studied and mastered this specific ending. That defender would annotate it a clean "=", and now since we have a convention that uses evaluations that aren't actually results, these two annotators have a useless and trivial disagreement!  Cheesy

Anyway, I agree with Nikos, as there's really no better system in place for evaluating chess positions. It's an interesting topic to wane philosophically on over a few beers some time though.

Grin

Let's not sidetrack what could be a nice discussion on the Mieses.
  
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Re: Is the Scotch Mieses Simply Lame for White?
Reply #6 - 08/13/14 at 16:18:52
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/13/14 at 16:08:12:
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What does += really mean to the annotator is an important question I've been thinking about lately


For me this is quite clear.

The side with the slight disadvantage has to play (at least a bit) better (make better moves, make less mistakes) to make the draw

"+/=" or "=/+" is really saying that the position is still a draw with perfect play, but one side has less margin of error or "forgiveness" by making sub-optimal moves.


Well stated and agreed.
  
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