Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Move order in the Saemich (Read 7319 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2500
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #13 - 08/24/14 at 22:17:35
Post Tools
True Kylemeister, and 8...Qxd5 leads to very different structures than 4.a3 as well; another example of how large this entire complex of theory is.  Speaking of Sokolov, I notice that he faced the move in 2013:

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4646
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #12 - 08/24/14 at 21:50:52
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 08/24/14 at 21:14:29:
For instance, after 4.e3 0-0 5.Bd3 d5 you might think that 6.a3 is begging to be played, but Black can avoid the "Botvinnik plan" structures (not sure what else to call it) and play 6...Bxc3 7.bc dxc4! instead of 7...c5 8.cd!.


This has come up before, but after 7...c5 8.cd, aside from the alleged revival of 8...ed, Black can also play 8...Qxd5 (speaking of exclams, I recall ECO appending one to this move), which has been alleged to lead to equality.  Odd that Sokolov ignored that possibility in his book.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2500
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #11 - 08/24/14 at 21:14:29
Post Tools
lnn2 wrote on 08/24/14 at 16:04:59:
I also wonder why some strong players play 4. e3 and 5. a3 next... the e pawn loses a tempo to go to e4 but is there some advantage to it?


It's a move order subtlety, as always.  It depends on the positions that White is aiming for; presumably he's happy with the old Botvinnik plan should Black play an early ...d5, but otherwise maybe he's not so keen to spend a tempo on a2-a3, so he waits to see how Black responds first.  4.e3 d5 is just asking for 5.a3! for instance, while on the other hand after 4.e3 c5 White may decide that Black hasn't made any concessions (he hasn't castled yet, hasn't committed to ...d5) and instead of transposing back to a Saemisch, he may now play 5.Ne2 or 5.Bd3, depending on which positions he likes and which he doesn't.

You don't have to always play 4.a3, but if you like some Saemisch positions and not others, you can try 4.e3 and see how Black responds.  The Rubenstein/Saemisch complexes are insanely massive, and both players can try to use move order tricks to get the positions they want.  For instance, after 4.e3 0-0 5.Bd3 d5 you might think that 6.a3 is begging to be played, but Black can avoid the "Botvinnik plan" structures (not sure what else to call it) and play 6...Bxc3 7.bc dxc4! instead of 7...c5 8.cd!. 

Make sense?  There are dozens, if not hundreds, of transpositions around here.

I'm calling this the "Botvinnik plan":



Incidentally, I never understood why 30.Ba3 is considered so incredible.  White has at least a draw and so isn't risking anything.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4646
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #10 - 08/24/14 at 17:32:39
Post Tools
Well, e3 has traditionally been main-line stuff in the Saemisch, as in E26, E28 and E29.

Incidentally, Raymond Keene advocated the "deferred Saemisch" ("4. e3 and then a3 as appropriate and if necessary") in a repertoire book 30 years ago.  At the time it had been played a few times by Kasparov; Keene wrote that it had been "generally abandoned by Russian grandmasters in the 1950s."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1503
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #9 - 08/24/14 at 16:04:59
Post Tools
I also wonder why some strong players play 4. e3 and 5. a3 next... the e pawn loses a tempo to go to e4 but is there some advantage to it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1632
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #8 - 08/22/14 at 08:02:19
Post Tools
Perhaps a bit of topic, but the winner of this years Swedish championship played both 4 a3 and 4 f3 in that tournament.
The reason was to possible to avoid opponents preparations.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2500
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #7 - 08/22/14 at 04:56:54
Post Tools
I agree that 4.a3 isn't very popular, but that doesn't mean that it's the same variation as 4.f3, a transposition or two notwithstanding.  White can also play 4.e3 0-0 5.Bd3 c5 6.a3 and transpose back to the Saemisch if he wants.  I suspect that 4.a3 would be a lot more popular if Black were forced to respond 4...Bxc3+ 5.bc c5 6.f3 d5, but of course he has plenty of deviations on moves 5 and 6.  It's not just a question of a single transposition or a single line, these are massive complexes with tons of theory.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #6 - 08/21/14 at 23:16:50
Post Tools
Dzindi isn't known for writing high-quality books, although Emms is quite respectable.

@ericthered - I can think of a single super GM game played in the last couple of years with a3, versus many with f3. The classical main line of both variations (black plays d5, white plays a3 and then takes, black recaptures either way) is the same.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2500
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #5 - 08/21/14 at 22:26:23
Post Tools
I wouldn't say that it's "more accurate," I'd say that 4.f3 is a different variation, though there are many transpositions between it and 4.a3.   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1632
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #4 - 08/21/14 at 20:03:46
Post Tools
gauss wrote on 08/21/14 at 14:04:18:
I always thought that the line with b6 had a bad reputation, although maybe I am wrong.


b6 line is recommended by Emms in "Nimzo Indian Move by Move".
Dzindzis book "Chess openings for black, Explained" also recommends this line.
.
The reason for this is that they wants to play other lines vs the f3 move order, where both books goes different ways, Dzindzi for example goes for the Be7 line you mentioned.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #3 - 08/21/14 at 14:04:18
Post Tools
I always thought that the line with b6 had a bad reputation, although maybe I am wrong.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1632
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #2 - 08/21/14 at 12:40:35
Post Tools
Both move orders can lead to the same position but in both lines black has other options.
For example in the a3 move order allows black to play b6 instead of c5.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1772
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Move order in the Saemich
Reply #1 - 08/21/14 at 04:09:41
Post Tools
One point is that a3 isn't always necessary, no?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Move order in the Saemich
08/21/14 at 00:11:20
Post Tools
Why is 4.f3 considered more accurate than 4.a3 in the Saemich NID? All the supergms play 4.f3, but it allows some lines where black plays Be7 (see Nakamura-Carlsen).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo