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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3 (Read 8151 times)
BobbyDigital80
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #11 - 09/26/14 at 01:55:08
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MNb wrote on 09/26/14 at 00:31:14:
Then by all means play ...Bb7. Though it remains unclear why you ask the question

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/19/14 at 10:02:58:
Is it okay to transpose into the Bb7 Archangel after 5.d3 in the Ruy Lopez?


if you already know the answer:

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/25/14 at 20:25:40:
I think it's actually worse on g6.



I didn't already know the answer. I thought it was okay but I wasn't sure if there was a specific variation that would make it bad, but ...Bg4 is definitely not better than ...Bb7. I don't see the point of ...Bg4.
  
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MNb
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #10 - 09/26/14 at 00:31:14
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Then by all means play ...Bb7. Though it remains unclear why you ask the question

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/19/14 at 10:02:58:
Is it okay to transpose into the Bb7 Archangel after 5.d3 in the Ruy Lopez?


if you already know the answer:

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/25/14 at 20:25:40:
I think it's actually worse on g6.

  

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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #9 - 09/25/14 at 20:25:40
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MNb wrote on 09/20/14 at 15:32:53:
"BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/20/14 at 03:41:17:
Would you also say the King's Indian bishop bites on granite on d4 whenever White plays e3?

It's probably more useful to compare with this line of the Tartakower: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 2.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.Bxf6 Bxf6 9.cxd5 exd5.
Why does White voluntarily give up the pair of bishops, even with loss of tempo? We are not talking about patzers here. Petrosjan, Shirov and Sokolov have done so. The answer is that Bf6 is misplaced. It's biting on granite exactly because of White's pawn on d4. It would be better on d6. Now nobody will argue that this line is unplayable for Black. It's just a small inconvenience.
In exactly the same way in the d3-Archankelsk Bb7 is not optimally placed - and White hasn't even made any concession like giving up the pair of bishops. It's nothing dramatic, but White will seek to exploit it, so Black will have to pay attention to it . By playing ...Bg4 when possible Black avoids this little inconvenience and equalizes more comfortably. Just one worry less. But if you still want to play ...Bb7 for some reason it's OK. Just be aware of the reason and be aware of the little inconvenience. In that case the answer to your original question

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/19/14 at 10:02:58:
Is it okay to transpose into the Bb7 Archangel after 5.d3 in the Ruy Lopez? 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7

is simply yes. Some other strong players have done so. At the other hand White's idea Nb1-c3-d5 seems to cause some trouble.


That QGD line isn't challenging at all, nor is it anything Black seeks to avoid.

And how is ...Bg4 better than ...Bb7? Where's the bishop going to end up, on g6? It's not any more active there than on b7. I think it's actually worse on g6.
  
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #8 - 09/25/14 at 20:24:23
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Fact no.1: It "not logical" under the sense the bishop on b7 does not help very much, as the Bishop is currently rather inactive there.
Fact no.2: It is entirely playable, factly I do not know any meaningful way for white to prove any sort of advantage in the d2-d3 Arkhangelsks. I will probably agree with GM Mikhalchisin who claims that in the d3 lines white's most dangerous attempt is the (currently rather unpopular) line (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 6. Bb3 Bb7 7.d3 Be7!) 8.c4!?, which needs a lot of care from Black to avoid a disadvantage.
So, if you play the Arkhangelsk, and you do not wish learning a second line, probably slightly superior to the one you know, then yes, placing the bishop at the "bad" b7 square is absolutely fine. I think that the popular idea of Nb1-c3-d5 possibly combined with Bd2, Be3, a4 or a3 gives white next to nothing.
  
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MNb
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #7 - 09/20/14 at 15:32:53
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"BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/20/14 at 03:41:17:
Would you also say the King's Indian bishop bites on granite on d4 whenever White plays e3?

It's probably more useful to compare with this line of the Tartakower: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 2.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 O-O 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.Bxf6 Bxf6 9.cxd5 exd5.
Why does White voluntarily give up the pair of bishops, even with loss of tempo? We are not talking about patzers here. Petrosjan, Shirov and Sokolov have done so. The answer is that Bf6 is misplaced. It's biting on granite exactly because of White's pawn on d4. It would be better on d6. Now nobody will argue that this line is unplayable for Black. It's just a small inconvenience.
In exactly the same way in the d3-Archankelsk Bb7 is not optimally placed - and White hasn't even made any concession like giving up the pair of bishops. It's nothing dramatic, but White will seek to exploit it, so Black will have to pay attention to it . By playing ...Bg4 when possible Black avoids this little inconvenience and equalizes more comfortably. Just one worry less. But if you still want to play ...Bb7 for some reason it's OK. Just be aware of the reason and be aware of the little inconvenience. In that case the answer to your original question

BobbyDigital80 wrote on 09/19/14 at 10:02:58:
Is it okay to transpose into the Bb7 Archangel after 5.d3 in the Ruy Lopez? 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7

is simply yes. Some other strong players have done so. At the other hand White's idea Nb1-c3-d5 seems to cause some trouble.
  

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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #6 - 09/20/14 at 11:46:57
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BobbyDigital, I am not an expert of the Archangel d3 or the d3 spanish but I think I have understood TN and Matemax's words.

Matemax probably didn't wanted to say Bb7 wasn't playable. He said it's playable but not the most logical.

For example in the BDG 1.d4 d5 2.e4, 2..e6 is very playable, but not the most promising for Black at this moment. It may be logical for a French player to transpose as a practical choice, but from a theoretical point of view he should accept the challenge of playing 2..dxe4.

Bb7 against a quick d3 in the Spanish is your practical choice but it's maybe not the most "precise" move at this moment from a theoretical point of view to benefict from White's little less ambitious move.
  
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #5 - 09/20/14 at 08:03:16
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Matemax wrote on 09/20/14 at 06:04:44:
a logical move and a playable move are not the same - sometimes, especially as Black, you have to take what you get


How is 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 not playable? If someone's main defense to 1.e4 is the Bb7 Archangel, then it makes sense to transpose to it after 5.d3. Not necessary, but very playable. If it wasn't playable, then the entire Bb7 Archangel wouldn't be playable because of 7.d3.
  
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #4 - 09/20/14 at 06:04:44
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a logical move and a playable move are not the same - sometimes, especially as Black, you have to take what you get
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #3 - 09/20/14 at 03:41:17
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Matemax wrote on 09/19/14 at 11:43:18:
It's not logical to place the bishop on b7 when he is biting on granite. The e4 pawn is securely supported by d3. Therefore the bishop simply looks out of play and furthermore Black runs risks connected with the f5 square.


If it's not logical to place the bishop on b7 biting on granite, then why do lots GMs play the mainline Bb7 Archangel, which allows 7.d3 transposing into the exact same position that you say isn't logical?

Also, the idea that black's bishop is biting on granite doesn't really say much about the evaluation of the position. You could use that same logic for lots of main line openings.

Would you also say the King's Indian bishop bites on granite on d4 whenever White plays e3? That makes very little sense. So then White would play Bg5, Nf3, e3 to refute the King's Indian if that mattered so much in the actual evaluation of the position.

Why isn't the King's Indian Attack an awesome opening in that case? Lots of players play b5 and Bb7 and the bishop does bite on granite on e4. It doesn't need to go to b7, but even if it does, it doesn't really matter.

  
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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #2 - 09/19/14 at 11:46:44
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I doubt there's anything better than transposing back with 7.0-0, but you have given White one of the better lines of the d3 Spanish with this move order (where Black somewhat misplaced his b7-bishop) and therefore 6...Bc5 or 5...d6 would seem to be better at exploiting the disadvantages of 5.d3 (namely that White needs a second move to get in d4). Especially in the 6...Bc5 line, the bishop can in many cases be well placed on g4.

The only truly independent and serious option I can think of is 7.Ng5 d5 8.exd5 Nd4 9.c4, which is interesting, but gives Black very nice compensation after 9...c6 10.dxc6 Bxc6 11.0-0 Be7! 12.cxb5 Nxb3 13.Qxb3 Bd5 14.Qa4 0-0 15.bxa6 Bb7. I think anyone with experience in the Two Knights as Black will be happy with such a position.
  

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Re: Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
Reply #1 - 09/19/14 at 11:43:18
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It's not logical to place the bishop on b7 when he is biting on granite. The e4 pawn is securely supported by d3. Therefore the bishop simply looks out of play and furthermore Black runs risks connected with the f5 square.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Bb7 Archangel against 5.d3
09/19/14 at 10:02:58
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Is it okay to transpose into the Bb7 Archangel after 5.d3 in the Ruy Lopez? 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7, and then 7.0-0 Be7 (or ...Bc5) transposes into the 7.d3 mainline of the Archangel. I've looked at games of the highest-rated Archangel players and I couldn't find any games where a strong GM played this move order as black. Why not? If someone's main defense to the Ruy Lopez is the Bb7 Archangel, why wouldn't they play it against 5.d3? If their reason is that ...Bb7 isn't good because 5.d3 shuts the bishop out, then why do they play the Archangel at all, allowing the 7.d3 line which also shuts out the bishop? It doesn't make sense to me because it seems like they're okay playing one move order but not the other, even though they transpose to the exact same position. Does anyone know if there's some other reason black doesn't play 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7? Thanks.
  
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