Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) confused about my opening choices (Read 8803 times)
VKap
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 39
Joined: 09/28/14
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #21 - 10/05/14 at 08:32:00
Post Tools
nestor wrote on 10/01/14 at 07:55:00:
ReneDescartes wrote on 10/01/14 at 01:14:33:
Well, nestor, you can get it via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6, which induces many White players will avoid the (incredibly rich and strong) Nimzo, and play 3.Nf3. Then you play 3...d5 and the exchange is no longer great and allows you to equalize. with ...c6, followed by (if necessary ...g6) and ...Bf5. But if White knows what he's doing and avoids that, you'll often get the chance for a Tarakower.

Quite right, and this is what I do. It just seems to me that, for a 1700 player, (a) preparing for the Nimzo, the QGD and the Catalan is a lot more work than (say) the Slav, and (b) the Torre, Tromp, London etc d-pawn specials are more of an issue for Black after 1.d4 Nf6 than after 1.d4 d5. However of course, if you want quality, it's no surprise that you have to work for it...


basically im trying to do the least amount of work theory wise and maximize time learning pawn structures and plans/optimizing piece setup against various structures with a little bit of theory thrown in there so i dont get slaughtered in open sicilians.

im not sure if thats the right way to go, but it seems logical enough. im going to stick with QGD ragozin/nimzo structures.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1222
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #20 - 10/01/14 at 17:34:59
Post Tools
I agree; it's what I do, too. Against d-pawn specials, I can (and do) use 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5, which is just as good as 1.d4 d5 for the lines I play. But you don't have to learn the Nimzo--after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 you can still play 3...d5 and get your QGD Exchange, satisfied that your move order will reduce the proportion of Exchanges and earn you a certain percentage of Tartakowers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nestor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 127
Location: London
Joined: 05/10/09
Gender: Male
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #19 - 10/01/14 at 07:55:00
Post Tools
ReneDescartes wrote on 10/01/14 at 01:14:33:
Well, nestor, you can get it via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6, which induces many White players will avoid the (incredibly rich and strong) Nimzo, and play 3.Nf3. Then you play 3...d5 and the exchange is no longer great and allows you to equalize. with ...c6, followed by (if necessary ...g6) and ...Bf5. But if White knows what he's doing and avoids that, you'll often get the chance for a Tarakower.

Quite right, and this is what I do. It just seems to me that, for a 1700 player, (a) preparing for the Nimzo, the QGD and the Catalan is a lot more work than (say) the Slav, and (b) the Torre, Tromp, London etc d-pawn specials are more of an issue for Black after 1.d4 Nf6 than after 1.d4 d5. However of course, if you want quality, it's no surprise that you have to work for it...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Oblonskij
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 10/27/10
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #18 - 10/01/14 at 07:44:13
Post Tools
I've started out with the Tartakower, tried everything else there is in the meantime, and returned to it recently with great success. So far nobody has played the exchange QGD against me, be it via the 1...Nf6 route or the 1. ...d5 route (I have done both with approximately even frequency).

I am amazed at how many strong players (2.000-2.300 ELO) wheel out the old 8. cxd5 mainline which is quite harmless if you know a thing or two.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2531
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #17 - 10/01/14 at 02:50:16
Post Tools
nestor wrote on 09/30/14 at 17:57:11:
The main problem with the Tartakover is, you never get it. Everyone plays an exchange variation, either 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Bf4. I've never been able to get comfortable with either of these for Black - I wish I could!


Given the prevalence of repertoire books that recommend it, surprisingly that hasn't been my experience at all, whether playing online or in person.  And in any case, the Exchange isn't something to be feared.

Naturally you can threaten a Nimzo with 1...Nf6 as well, as Rene points out.  I just find it odd how many amateurs completely overlook an opening system that has been played by virtually World Champion--for both sides--since it was invented. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1222
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #16 - 10/01/14 at 01:14:33
Post Tools
Well, nestor, you can get it via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6, which induces many White players to avoid the (incredibly rich and strong) Nimzo, and play 3.Nf3. Then you play 3...d5 and the exchange is no longer great and allows you to equalize. with ...c6, followed by (if necessary ...g6) and ...Bf5. But if White knows what he's doing and avoids that, you'll often get the chance for a Tarakower.

<Edited to correct grammar in second clause>.
« Last Edit: 10/01/14 at 17:36:59 by ReneDescartes »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nestor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 127
Location: London
Joined: 05/10/09
Gender: Male
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #15 - 09/30/14 at 17:57:11
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 09/29/14 at 23:32:32:
Instead of the Slav, you might just try the ole' Tartakower Queen's Gambit Declined.  Classical, active, perfectly sound, and fairly aggressive--it's hard to go wrong with that, and most people completely overlook the Queen's Gambit Declined for "sexier," more fashionable choices.

The main problem with the Tartakover is, you never get it. Everyone plays an exchange variation, either 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cd ed 5.Bg5 or 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.cd ed 5.Bf4. I've never been able to get comfortable with either of these for Black - I wish I could!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Aziridine
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 146
Joined: 04/07/09
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #14 - 09/30/14 at 16:55:58
Post Tools
VKap wrote on 09/30/14 at 07:46:32:
Aziridine wrote on 09/30/14 at 06:00:38:
Which lines in the Nimzo seem "boring" to you? In theory it makes a nice fit with the Ragozin - I play this repertoire myself.


after Qc2.
Ive also looked into 4... d5 but white can just play cxd5 and play for a draw.

currently looking into the Zurich variation and the ideas around those structures.

The Zurich is a good fit with the Ragozin (they share the idea of playing ...e5) and 4...d6 is also worth considering. But it's not at all true that White can steer for a draw after 4...d5 5.cxd5 exd5. If anything it's Black who controls how sharp the game becomes - if 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 doesn't appeal to him he can bypass this with 6...c5. Meanwhile the main lines involving ...h6 and ...g5 are some of the sharpest in the Nimzo as a whole (although I hesitate to recommend playing this way to a 1700). I would be more concerned about drawishness in the Ragozin - what do you plan on playing when White goes 5.Bg5 or 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5? The other commenters also have a point - "drawish" does not really apply to club level chess to begin with and a slow move like 4.Qc2 only gives Black more leeway than usual to play actively.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #13 - 09/30/14 at 15:49:08
Post Tools
I see your point, however I think one could consider such issues when deciding on a repertoire (and assuming this will be a repertoire that could be used -to various extend- for life).

Of course one should not become 'obsessed' about such things.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4751
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #12 - 09/30/14 at 15:18:33
Post Tools
I wonder if this sort of thing -- 1700 players worrrying about major opening lines being drawish -- has for some reason become more common.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2042
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #11 - 09/30/14 at 09:50:48
Post Tools
4 Qc2 is too ambitious/time consuming a move for white to be able to really kill the game Smiley

If white tries to play slowly after 4.. d5 5 cd ed etc there's a lot of ways for them to have a nasty accident.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
VKap
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 39
Joined: 09/28/14
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #10 - 09/30/14 at 07:46:32
Post Tools
Aziridine wrote on 09/30/14 at 06:00:38:
Which lines in the Nimzo seem "boring" to you? In theory it makes a nice fit with the Ragozin - I play this repertoire myself.


after Qc2.

white has so many ways to steer the game and open up the position. I have Nimzo Indian Move by Move by John Emms, and there are 2 recommendations. 4... O-O and 4.... c5.

the first one is an initiative at all costs by using the lead in development to attack, but the second one seems to be very drawish. Ive also looked into 4... d5 but white can just play cxd5 and play for a draw.

currently looking into the Zurich variation and the ideas around those structures.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Aziridine
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 146
Joined: 04/07/09
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #9 - 09/30/14 at 06:00:38
Post Tools
Which lines in the Nimzo seem "boring" to you? In theory it makes a nice fit with the Ragozin - I play this repertoire myself.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
VKap
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 39
Joined: 09/28/14
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #8 - 09/30/14 at 02:45:41
Post Tools
ReneDescartes wrote on 09/30/14 at 01:54:07:
Hmm, you've improved from 900 to 1700 in the last year. You're doing better than Caruana, who became the youngest grandmaster in U.S. history: it took him over two years, while taking lessons from a master, to get from 900 to 1700. No wonder you're bored with the Winawer and the Slav.


do you want to see my USCF page? im being serious... except im 22 so most of my progress came from not hanging pieces and trying to make plans and spotting tactics. oh and blitz during breaks at work hahah

so caruana is the same age as me, or a year younger.

thats as close as the similarities between me and him go.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1222
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: confused about my opening choices
Reply #7 - 09/30/14 at 01:54:07
Post Tools
Hmm, you've improved from 900 to 1700 in the last year. You're doing better than Caruana, who became the youngest grandmaster in U.S. history: it took him over two years, while taking lessons from a master, to get from 900 to 1700. No wonder you're bored with the Winawer and the Slav.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo