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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please (Read 13195 times)
chk
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #19 - 03/20/15 at 09:35:23
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TonyRo wrote on 12/11/14 at 22:00:18:
...
Chess24 has a very nice video (basically a Chessbase DVD in length - 34 videos and 7 hours of footage) by Robin Van Campen on the KID. Mostly well established main lines, and there's an associated online ebook that's helpful as well, especially because while going through it you have access to the Chess24 online database and Stockfish too. I might start there honestly:

Van Kampen KID


Just an update - Bought this video series and so far it looks quite useful and to the point. Was thinking to move next to the accompanying ebook and later on to some of the books mentioned in this thread (based on the specific variations I will decide to play).

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yolocounty
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #18 - 02/04/15 at 19:13:43
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The instant reaction to half the moves in the second half of the game is "what the ___?"  I love the King's Indian.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #17 - 02/03/15 at 17:37:25
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Nice game. I Imagine Gawain was a tiny bit confused at having to play white in that sort of position Smiley
  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #16 - 02/03/15 at 16:26:11
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Recalling that the Saemisch Panno came up in this thread, I thought I would just point to this nice (for Black)-looking game from yesterday.  (Though in his book on this variation written some years before Jones was born, Watson pointed out that it shouldn't be named after Panno ...)



  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #15 - 01/14/15 at 22:25:51
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I will write my experience.I liked the lines of the bologan dvd and the Na6 classicall variation,this also from another dvd.
Ofcourse I have lost some bad games,this opening is not easy.
  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #14 - 12/29/14 at 21:26:19
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yolocounty wrote on 12/03/14 at 19:55:08:
A lot of white players know a little bit of theory, but often their knowledge - especially in the 1800-2200 range - just gets them into trouble.  I win a lot of games where we play 15 moves of theory, then my opponent thinks for 20 minutes and walks into a lost position over the course of five or six moves (this includes experts).  Theory is often sharp, and if you know the positions better, you will win.

Absolutely true.
Reminds me of a funny annotation that for me characterizes the mainline KID.  After a standard/typical KID position the annotation was "Black is clearly worse, with winning chances."  Could have been Anand - Nakamura, London 2011.  Grin
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #13 - 12/29/14 at 21:09:28
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If those books are anything like his Fianchetto book, they are not suitable for someone who's just coming back to the KID or taking it up for the first time. Why do I need 700 pages on the Fianchetto Variation? That's way too much information to parse through to get what you really need. Great as a reference or for CC, but otherwise I don't necessarily get it.

Of course, I'm a sucker and I'll still buy his MDP books...
  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #12 - 12/29/14 at 18:42:41
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Just wait for Kotronias & Quality Chess' next books on the Mar de Plata KID
« Last Edit: 12/29/14 at 20:29:46 by gramsci »  
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chk
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #11 - 12/17/14 at 12:50:38
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Thanks that looks cool! (would have never thought of checking videos first)
  

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TonyRo
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #10 - 12/11/14 at 22:00:18
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I have played the KID mostly exclusively for basically the entirety of my chess career, starting off with the two Gallagher books, eventually moving to the Bologan book, and then to the Vigorito books. All have their upsides and downs, but in general my current repertoire is probably best reflected by the Vigorito books and a reasonable amount of extra work with databases/home analysis.

Chess24 has a very nice video (basically a Chessbase DVD in length - 34 videos and 7 hours of footage) by Robin Van Campen on the KID. Mostly well established main lines, and there's an associated online ebook that's helpful as well, especially because while going through it you have access to the Chess24 online database and Stockfish too. I might start there honestly:

Van Kampen KID
  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #9 - 12/11/14 at 21:48:42
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Agree about Vigorito, although learning to play the Panno is a very serious undertaking that should not be taken lightly.
  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #8 - 12/08/14 at 20:41:53
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I took up the King's Indian this year to sharpen my play against 1.d4 (previously playing the Slav) and have been extremely pleased with the results.  Mostly wins, one draw (which I should have won!) and a loss against an IM due to a time pressure blunder in an even endgame.

Regarding a repertoire, I mostly have relied on David Vigorito's two volume masterpiece "Attacking Chess: The King's Indian" as the foundation as his choices of variations seem to fulfill the promise of the title quite well in my experience.
  
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chk
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #7 - 12/08/14 at 08:04:26
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Thanks, I'll definitely have a look at those.
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #6 - 12/05/14 at 15:46:11
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An example of 0-0 against the Saemisch Panno is this old main line:  6. Be3 Nc6 7. Nge2 a6 8. Qd2 Rb8 (preparing ...b5) 9. Nc1 (preventing ...b5 and preparing to develop the kingside) e5 (a standard idea when the e2-knight moves) 10. Nb3 (10. d5 Nd4 is also normal stuff) ed 11. Nxd4 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 Be6 13. Be2 c6 14. 0-0 b5.  (In the last few years 9. Rc1 has been all the rage.)

In the Averbakh, one of the possibilities after 6...c5 7. d5 is the kind of thing Nakamura played against Gelfand about a year ago.  It was like 1970 all over again.*  Perhaps generally considered +=, but I quote fluffy from ChessPublishing:  "This system is easy to learn and even if White finds a small edge, the positions that arise are quite playable, in my opinion."

*One example I recall from that year is Lombard-Gligoric, which was used by Drazen Marovic in a repertoire book some time ago.  I think Gelfand deviated from Lombard's play on move 16.
« Last Edit: 12/05/14 at 19:06:18 by kylemeister »  
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chk
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #5 - 12/05/14 at 09:29:16
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Very good thoughts thank you. I would say something starts to shape:

- Classical MDP - ok, definitely like this
- Petrosian - ...a5 & ...Na6 also like this (have no experience but could use my Dutch Leni experience here). Also vaguely remember a Fischer game with an early pre-emptive ...c5 that was amazing (but suppose outdated now).
- The Exchange used to be a problem for me 8 years ago, but have improved my skills in Q-less middlegames & endgames and think I can tackle it.
- 4 Pawns also ok with ...c5. Maybe follow it with benko/wolga or not (but think will be able to find sth I like in this line).

The grey areas are still:
- Averbakh: ok will check the Benoni type centre (but have no experience with those - feeling a bit uncomfortable to tell the truth).
- Fianchetto: I used to hate these lines (and was not employing ...d6, but ...c6). After my Dutch experiences, I am now comfortable to try ...d6 set-ups. I will definitely check the Panno first.

- The Saemisch: Well, I still have no clue here. I may leave it for last. I used to consider this system as an average attempt by White, but nowadays if I was White, it would have been my top reference vs. the KID. I am ignorant though - what is the point of the Panno vs. the Saemisch: you apply it only if White goes for O-O-O? What if White goes O-O? (hate it when my opponent stays flexible!)
  

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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #4 - 12/04/14 at 23:23:43
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Let's do the list:

Classical
-Averbakh
-Petrosian
-Exchange
Fianchetto
Samisch
Makogonov
Four Pawns

In the Classical, I would think you head for the MDP; compared to 20 years ago these lines have gotten better for Black, I think, as a theoretical matter, and they certainly offer opportunities to the player with the better understanding.

In the Averbakh, I would always go for the Benoni-style transposition.

In the Petrosian, the ...a5 and ...Na6 lines are very healthy.

In the Exchange... why am I talking about theory in the exchange?  You have the d4 square, he doesn't have d5.  Enjoy.

In the Fianchetto the Panno is theoretically doing well.  I have played a lot of English flavored stuff (e.g. 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 4 g3 0-0 5 Bg2 c5 6 Nc3 cxd4 7 Nxd4 Nc6 8 0-0 Nxd4 9 Qxd4 d6 followed by ...Be6.)  That's a bit passive sometimes, but not everyone knows what to do.

In the Samisch, the Panno is also doing well.  There are also Benko-like ideas, but I am not an aficianado of those.

I have to admit I don't have a line against the Makagonov.  It just never struck me as a serious try for advantage.  I have played based on vague memories that ...Nh5 early works, and had success.

The Four Pawns Benoni is not good for White, so why not head for it?
  
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chk
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #3 - 12/04/14 at 11:00:04
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Thank you both, interesting thoughts (I suppose "-classical with e5 and Sf6" should read Sc6?)
  

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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #2 - 12/04/14 at 08:42:20
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At the moment I am really satisfied with my repertoire:

-classical with e5 and Sf6
-samish with a6 and Sbd7 (ok not everyone likes it) and to play c5 and b5 ala wolga benko
-fianchetto with Sc6 and a6 (Panno)
-sidelines: often with c5 and b5 (benko) especially in lines in which white develops the bishop to f4 or g5 Wink
  
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Re: Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
Reply #1 - 12/03/14 at 19:55:08
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I took up the KID about 6 months ago, and immediately had a six-round weekend tournament in which every game, with black and white, began 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3.  (5 KID's and a Grunfeld).

Anyway.

A lot of white players know a little bit of theory, but often their knowledge - especially in the 1800-2200 range - just gets them into trouble.  I win a lot of games where we play 15 moves of theory, then my opponent thinks for 20 minutes and walks into a lost position over the course of five or six moves (this includes experts).  Theory is often sharp, and if you know the positions better, you will win.

I can't get concerned about the Exchange, but you'll need to do some work on the h3 lines because they are the first refuge of people who overthink their openings.

I don't generally like Benko stuff very much, but the Benoni transpositions (Averbakh, etc.) seem to be theoretically okay and I never feel like I'm getting crushed there.

...e5 and ...Nc6 is still viable against almost everything, although I believe there are some theoretical problems in the Fianchetto.
  
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chk
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Coming back to the KID? Suggestions please
12/03/14 at 18:08:17
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I'll be honest and confess that, apart from the cursory look, have not visited the KID forum for quite a few years and it feels like a daunting task to start searching for the various answers I need, so I thought to start a new topic (excuse me for that!).

Some background:
- Used to play the KID some 20 years back. I loved the KID and had decent to good results with it. However, back then I was usually facing competition of  ~1400-1800.
- Following a 12-year hiatus I started playing chess again and tried the KID of course but was put off by the exchange variation, the Kramer, Makagonov, Averbakh, the various anti-KID lines and in general I felt that White players were more booked up vs. the KID than I would have thought. I decided to try a new opening vs. d4/c4/Nf3 and did not put any effort to refresh my understanding and lines in this opening.
- Nowadays, I usually face ~1800-2200 players. I play the Dutch (Dutch or Slav Stonewall and the Leningrad) – I would say rather average results so far. More importantly I don’t feel at home. I play the Najdorf vs. 1. e4 and would like sth like that. But I am also at par in positional play and endgames (which I like a lot).
- My captain suggested going back to the KID and I admit I was rather tempted. I have a really good old book called Mastering the KID that offers a quick review of the main strategic & tactical ideas and thought to give it a serious read during Christmas. I could search for detailed variations elsewhere (or check the games of e.g. Kasparov, Radjabov etc.); however, this is where my problem lies. Which systems to focus on?

a) Always liked the …e5 lines (with Nc6). Have never really tried or explored the …c5 or …Na6 setups. But I liked the Benko approach, but cannot remember vs. which line (I think it was the 4 pawns).
b) vs. the fianchetto lines I used to employ …c6 & …d5 (a la Grunfeld), but not sure if I want to go that way anymore.
c) have no clue what to do vs. anti-KID lines or 1. c4 (low maintenance and easy to remember replies would be appreciated here).

Right now everything seems either intimidating (e.g. Mar del Plata, Bayonet, Averbakh, Makagonov, Kramer, Saemisch, 4 pawns, fianchetto lines) or like an easy draw for White (the Exchange, the anti-KID lines). It is my lack of knowledge of course. But what to choose and where to start from? How much preparation is needed nowadays to play the Classical? And is there an interesting and easy to follow (not too dense) repertoire book out there?

Sorry for the big post, I will appreciate your thoughts and directions on this matter.   Undecided
  

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