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Normal Topic Avoiding Maróczy Bind 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 c5 (Read 2613 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: Avoiding Maróczy Bind 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 c5
Reply #4 - 12/20/14 at 00:23:44
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huibui's advices looks good but I didn't check in details.

This subject is interesting for me because of my opening evolution.The Grünfeld has always been my main defense for something like 98% of my total OTB games. Against e4 I had the Najdorf and then the Accelerated Dragon as my main defense. And against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 I always tried to play in Grünfeld style. For example after 1.Nf3 I always used 1..Nf6 until recently. 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5, ok White has some anti-Grünfelds here, like in the Opening for White According to Kramnik, etc. I think Black should be OK here theoretically but I don't like very much the Black side of it.

Against 1.c4 I always played 1..Nf6 until recently too, and the line which annoyed me was this one: 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.g3 followed by Fg2 but with the Knight staying at g1 (and that's why 1.c4 was more annoying for me than 1.Nf3 because White can keep some options with an anti Grünfeld with the knight still on g1).

Then I fell in love with the Reversed Sicilian 1.c4 e5 and it doesn't require so much work to have a nice balanced game. So I just had to find something against 1.Nf3 combining well with my repertoire and it's done! As I play the Accelerated Dragon (Gurgenidze), allowing the Maroczy bind is not a problem until I am happy with a draw (against little more or much higher rated player). So I wondered a long time what is the best move order to allow/"force" a Maroczy or Grünfeld, depending of his move order or mine, or the game situation. Now I found that 1.Nf3 g6 is the most logical for me, but I am still wondering if White can play with Nf3+c4 without d4 while "keeping" the opening advantage, or if he SHOULD play the Maroczy here to hope for something. But because of my repertoire it seems that my move orders are easier for me than for DenVerdsligeRejsende.

So one idea for DenVerdsligeRejsende:

Following huibui advices, or play in Grünfeld style with 1..Nf6 against everything but checking the anti-Grünfeld's lines (I gave one of them), or combining with something different like 1..e5 against English (even Svidler plays it often...) and finding something against 1.Nf3 or keeping 1..Nf6/2..g6 etc).

If someone can answer my questions, it's welcome!
  
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huibui
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Re: Avoiding Maróczy Bind 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 c5
Reply #3 - 12/19/14 at 02:24:47
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As I wrote above, in your third diagram 4...cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 6.Nc2 Bxc3 is considered to be at least equal for Black. Do you disagree with that assessment?
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Avoiding Maróczy Bind 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 c5
Reply #2 - 12/19/14 at 00:59:22
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These are the annoying positions where I get tricked as Black:

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I really do not want to play this:

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or this:

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I am a Sicilian and also Pirc/Modern player as well as Grünfeld, so I do not mind transposing into none of the above, but the problem with 1. Nf3 g6 is that they usually do not allow Pirc, but rather that Maróczy, and 1. c4 they try to trick me into the Classical KID, which I would rather play as White. Perhaps this is possible:

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but being around 2300-2350 I cannot help but feel that this is just dubious against decent opposition (even against inferior opposition), i.e. it might even be more unpleasant than playing against the Maróczy Bind.

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looks even more dubious, and to me at least, it sees out that this setup uden ...cxd4 and ...Nc6 is very dangerous.
  
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huibui
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Re: Avoiding Maróczy Bind 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 c5
Reply #1 - 12/18/14 at 17:00:28
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I asked myself the same question some time ago. I came up with 3 ideas to reach the ...c5+...g6+...Bg7 setup against 1.c4 without allowing a Maroczy Bind:

1. Play 1...g6. After 2.g3 or 2.Nc3 you can play 2...c5 and White does't get a Maroczy setup (for instance 2.Nc3 c5 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 6.Nc2 Bxc3 is considered to be fine for Black). 2.d4 is not a problem for a Grünfeld player, as you have 2...Nf6. 2.Nf3 can be answered by 2...Bg7, and again 3.d4 allows 3...Nf6 while 3.Nc3 and 3.g3 allow ...c5. There remains White's most ambitious move (imo), 2.e4. To avoid transpositions to the Maroczy, KID or modern, you should play 2...e5. You should be prepared for the critical 3.d4 Nf6, which is not too bad for Black to my knowledge. White can avoid this by playing a Botvinnik setup (Nc3, g3, Bg2, Nge2 etc) or the rather tame 3.Nf3 (there you have an improved KID, as ...c6 and ...d5 should give Black good play - basically winning a tempo over the exd4-line in the classical variation).

2. Play 1...c5 and be ready for a quick ...d5. Against 2.Nc3 and 2.g3 you can play 2...g6 (see above). Against 2.Nf3 play 2...Nf6, and answer 3.g3 or 3.Nc3 by 3...d5. This can transpose back to the Grünfeld, or to pure English lines which are probably OK for Black. There remains 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 - here you have another choice: Either you use the fact that ...g6 has not been played yet, and play a setup involving ...e6 (these are considered to be fine for Black afaik), or you play the Grünfeld-like 4...g6 5.Nc3/g3 d5 - I'm not sure how sound that is.

3. Play 1...c5 and answer 2.Nf3 by 2...Nc6. 3.g3 allows 3...g6, 3.d4 can again be answered by taking on d4 and playing an ...e6-setup. Imo critical is 3.Nc3, where 3...g6 is interesting. Critical is 4.e3 Nf6 5.d4 cxd4 6.exd4 d5 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Qb3 - here the old theory goes 8...Nxc3 9.Bc4 Nd5 10.Bxd5 e6 11.Bxc6 bxc6 12.0-0, but rather recently 8...e6 has been played more, I think.

The second approach also works against 1.Nf3 (just play 1...Nf6 2.c4 c5). Using the third one against 1.Nf3 requires you to be ready for a sicilian main line (1... c5 2.e4), as the knight needs to remain on g8 for a while. An additional option against 1.Nf3 is the Anti-Grünfeld 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 - to my knowledge there are some problems for Black at the moment, but that could certainly be a wrong impression.

It is worth pointing out that 1...g6 doesn't seem to work against 1.Nf3 because 2.e4 more or less forces a KID or a Maroczy Bind.

Also, in the position after 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 (which Black can also reach after 1.Nf3), 2...g6 is not an option unfortunately. After 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 Black transposes to the risky-looking line from approach 2 above, but 3.e4 kills all the fun as 4.d4 can't be stopped conveniently.

If you know of a tricky move-order for White to challenge one of the approaches above, please let me know. I would also be very interested in different ideas for Black.
« Last Edit: 12/18/14 at 22:17:27 by huibui »  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Avoiding Maróczy Bind 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 c5
12/18/14 at 03:31:13
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As a Grünfeldplayer, I am aware that almost never do 1. Nf3 or 1. c4 players play into the Grünfeld through transposition, so I try at times to play 1...c5 against both. However, I often have problems avoiding the transposition to Maróczy's Bind in the Accelerated Dragon after White plays Nf3, Nc3, and then a fast d4. This is something that I never want to play as Black, but I cannot find a way to avoid it if White plays d4 quick before (or uden) fianchettoing the g2bishop. How do 1...c5 players play the c5 systems against Réti and English uden transposing into the Accelerated Dragon Maróczy Bind setup? I know that there are setups where Black never develops the g8knight and plays either ...Qb6 or ...Qa5 and leaves her there, but to me this is a dubious form of the Modern where lack of development can be very dangerous, or in other ord, the "cure" is worse than the "illness".

Like 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. d4, 1. c4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 g6 4. d4. Or 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. d4, 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. d4, and I keep getting tricked here. I really do not want to play 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. d4 Qa5, or 1. Nf3 c5 2. c4  g6 3. Nc3 Qa5, which look too ridiculous and dubious to just avoid the Maróczy Bind.
« Last Edit: 12/18/14 at 04:42:34 by DenVerdsligeRejsende »  
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