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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3 (Read 22018 times)
tony37
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #22 - 01/12/15 at 13:02:25
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CourtneyGrant wrote on 01/12/15 at 10:36:11:
But I have one last question: 
In the 8.Bd3 line, what do you think of 8...exd5 9.exd5 Na6 10.Nf3 Nb4 11.Bb1 b5 12.Nxb5?

12...Ba6 is strong here, one of white's problems is that the g7 bishop is pointing at the unprotected b2 pawn (+a1 rook), for example 13.a4? Nfxd5 14.cxd5 Bxb2
white's only playable move seems 13.O-O, now 13...Nfxd5 doesn't work out well because of 14.Bg5 and there's no queen check, so black should play 13...Nbxd5 or 13...Bxb5 14.cxb5 Qb6 (or Rb8)
yet another option is 12...Qb6 13.O-O Nbxd5
  
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Crapov
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #21 - 01/12/15 at 12:40:20
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@kylemeister. Van Kampen does not analyse specific games other than the opening moves.
Kavalek-Kasparov starts 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 OO 6.h3 e5 7.d5 Na6 (Van Kampen recommends 7...Nh5) 8.Be3 Nh5 9.Nh2 which could transpose to Van Kampen's line 7...Nh5 8.Nh2 Na6 if White would play 9.Be3 (instead of the main line 9.g3) but it is not covered in the video.

That 9...b5 line looks wild and interesting. I'm just wondering how practical it would be to prepare it for a sideline that I've never faced, even in blitz. But I don't know, maybe it doesn't even require much preparation.
  
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CourtneyGrant
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #20 - 01/12/15 at 10:36:11
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Wow, that 9...b5 analysis is really great!
I love those correspondence games posted by tony37...just the dynamic stuff I was looking for!
I think we've found an exciting antidote to 6.Be3!

But I have one last question: 
In the 8.Bd3 line, what do you think of 8...exd5 9.exd5 Na6 10.Nf3 Nb4 11.Bb1 b5 12.Nxb5?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #19 - 01/12/15 at 03:58:18
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Indeed I recall 9. Bg5 putting that line under a cloud not long after the nice Beliavsky-Nunn game.  Seems a bit of an outlier though ...
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #18 - 01/12/15 at 03:24:41
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tony37 wrote on 01/11/15 at 20:37:20:
...really interesting, now 6.Be3 just looks inferior to 6.Bg5


That's essentially my view; I don't know what the bishop does on e3 if it isn't helping with the c4-c5 push.  But then, I'm the guy who's essentially played nothing but the 6.Bg5 Saemisch against the King's Indian his whole life!

One thing that really clued me in to e3 being a subpar square for the Bishop, at least in Benoni structures, was this position:



And now believe it or not, the most popular move in this position, played by such great players as Karpov, Timman, and Korchnoi, is.... 9.Bg5! 
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #17 - 01/12/15 at 00:21:16
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Just curious, does van Kampen show the (I would think, classic) game Kavalek-Kasparov?  (More generally, one might wonder to what extent he/other young GMs tend to focus on the latest stuff in these opening videos ...)
  
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Crapov
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #16 - 01/11/15 at 22:29:28
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Hi Courtney. 6...Na6 is also possible and recommended in my KID bible Play the King's Indian. For example, 7.Bd3 e5 8.d5 Nd7.
7.Nf3 e5 8.d5 Nh5 could transpose to the lines given by Van Kampen in lecture 21 after, for example, 9.Nh2, although White gets an extra option with 9.Nd2.

  
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tony37
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #15 - 01/11/15 at 20:37:20
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I hadn't looked at 9...b5 before, and yes, it seems to work
I found 2 correspondence games with this:



white can avoid this with 6.Be3 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 (when 8...exd5 9.exd5 b5 can be answered with 10.Nxb5) but then 8...exd5 9.exd5 Na6 10.Nf3 (10.Nge2 Nb4 11.Bb1 b5; 10.a3 Nc7) Nb4 11.Bb1 (11.Be2 Bf5) b5 works for black
really interesting, now 6.Be3 just looks inferior to 6.Bg5
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #14 - 01/11/15 at 17:57:00
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That reminded me of Velimirovic playing ...b5 in the position with Bd3 and ...Re8 in, when Nxb5 (as played against him by Timman) was considered to lead to an edge for White.  (I also recall the Dutch player Michael Riemens crushing someone with that ...b5 a few years ago, but that fellow didn't continue like Timman ...)
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #13 - 01/11/15 at 17:05:22
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Really, Tony37?  I guess I've never believed in these exd5 lines for White very much.  The computer even seems to think that the immediate 9...b5!?, trying to take advantage of White's move order, is pretty much equal.  I remember these ...b5 pawn sac ideas from similar positions (perhaps the Averbakh).

Of course, there's an old line that goes 9...Re8 10.Bd3 Bh6, and I don't remember the theoretical verdict there--maybe White is better, he scores pretty well.  And perhaps 10...Rxe3 (!? or ?!) is worth a shot.  Kylemeister probably knows this stuff better than I do.

But okay, point taken; White doesn't want to play a Benoni position, he wants to play x...exd5 y.exd5, and in that particular position perhaps it's best to remain flexible with 6...Nbd7.  Still, I think that with 9...b5!? Black should be more or less OK, as White's kingside development is very slow:




Edit: For some reason I can't get the PGN button to work, and I had to manually type in "[ pgn ]" and "[ / pgn ]". 
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #12 - 01/11/15 at 16:33:52
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CourtneyGrant wrote on 01/11/15 at 12:20:53:
What to do after 8.Nf3 (or 8.Bd3) exd5 9.exd5?
Watson analyses various possibilities for black but none of those seems good  Sad


I wondered what the 1990s Watson would have had Black play there.  After 5. h3 0-0 6. Nf3 he indicated that he wasn't a fan of 6...c5.  In that case 7. d5 e6 8. Bd3 ed 9. ed (9. cd is also a big move here) Re8+ 10. Be3 (as in tony37's game) is an old main line (I associate it with games involving such people as Botvinnik, Polugaevsky and Kavalek*) which is perhaps considered +=.  In the  6. Be3 case, offhand it seemed plausible to me that Black might have something preferable to 8...ed 9. ed Re8.  I gather than in the more recent book Watson thinks not.

*incidentally, analysis of the critical phase of one of those games can be found at http://en.chessbase.com/post/kavalek-in-huffington-winning-while-losing
  
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CourtneyGrant
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #11 - 01/11/15 at 12:20:53
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kylemeister wrote on 01/11/15 at 05:57:31:
In line with that, the 1990s version of Watson gave 6...c5 ("a good option") 7. d5 e6 "= will lead to a Benoni where White does not usually place his bishop on e3 at such an early stage," and 7. dc as leading to =/unclear with best play.



What to do after 8.Nf3 (or 8.Bd3) exd5 9.exd5?
Watson analyses various possibilities for black but none of those seems good  Sad
  
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tony37
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #10 - 01/11/15 at 12:03:21
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/11/15 at 05:29:08:
6...Nbd7 certainly has some logic, since White has covered the g4 square Black doesn't need to keep the option of ...Ng4 open anymore.

I'm sure that any reasonable King's Indian setup is playable here, but for some reason my chess education tells me to switch to ...c5! when White plays a system with an early dark-squared Bishop move.  Especially with the Bishop on e3, White isn't going to get much of anything by going into a Benoni.  I think the only real question here is how 6...c5 7.dxc5 works out, as 7.d5 and 7.Nf3 should be perfectly fine for Black, in my opinion.

I think 6...c5 is exactly what white wants when he plays 6.Be3 (not when he plays 6.Bg5), playing exd5 iso cxd5 if black goes for a modern benoni
I won the following correspondence game with this, admittedly my opponent didn't play that well but he was worse during the whole game

  
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #9 - 01/11/15 at 08:37:30
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5.h3 Nbd7 was also recommended by Bologan on his ChessBase DVD about the KID. Unfortunately he forgot to cover 5.Nf3 0-0 6.h3, when the ideas connected with 5...Nbd7 no longer work.

As Kylemeister wrote Black can delay castling here and continue after e.g. 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 Nc5 with ...a5, ...h5-h4, ...Nh5 and sometimes ...Bh6 to get a grip on the dark squares.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #8 - 01/11/15 at 05:57:31
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/11/15 at 05:29:08:
I'm sure that any reasonable King's Indian setup is playable here, but for some reason my chess education tells me to switch to ...c5! when White plays a system with an early dark-squared Bishop move.  Especially with the Bishop on e3, White isn't going to get much of anything by going into a Benoni.  I think the only real question here is how 6...c5 7.dxc5 works out, as 7.d5 and 7.Nf3 should be perfectly fine for Black, in my opinion.


In line with that, the 1990s version of Watson gave 6...c5 ("a good option") 7. d5 e6 "= will lead to a Benoni where White does not usually place his bishop on e3 at such an early stage," and 7. dc as leading to =/unclear with best play.
  
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