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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3 (Read 21967 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #37 - 06/24/19 at 06:39:05
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stockhausen wrote on 06/24/19 at 06:17:11:
Anyone have any new insight on this? Looks like this has gone back into fashion as people are now playing 5.h3 O-O 6.Be3 c5 7.Nf3 aiming for a Maroczy Bind.

Well, it is addressed again in the latest update ...
  
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stockhausen
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #36 - 06/24/19 at 06:17:11
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Anyone have any new insight on this? Looks like this has gone back into fashion as people are now playing 5.h3 O-O 6.Be3 c5 7.Nf3 aiming for a Maroczy Bind.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #35 - 01/19/15 at 20:35:22
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One case of ...Rxe5 in the old version which stuck in my memory was a game between Joel Lautier and Yacov Murey.  Let's just say that losing one tempo with White may not make a lot of difference, but losing two is probably not recommended ...
  
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #34 - 01/19/15 at 20:13:03
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On a side note, in the games posted by Vass, my engine(s) incidentally seem to prefer 13...Rxe5 but I'm sure both players had a look at this as well.
  
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topandkas
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #33 - 01/19/15 at 20:07:52
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I'm not an avid correspondence player like Vass (but a reasonably strong OTB player) but I think overall my impression is that Black should be holding a draw reasonably comfortably with optimal play. I agree that ...f7-f5 is probably just a pipedream and at best  Black can hope for ...b7-b5 with subsequent liquidations on the queenside. Black essentially has to content himself with shuffling around pieces in a cramped position but should be okay. Therefore, in practical OTB play I'd imagine this could prove difficult for Black but from a theoretical point of view and in correspondence play, I really don't think White has much.

Maybe I will have a more in-depth look at the position at some point, and if I find any ways for Black to activate his position Ill let you know but for now White does seem to have a certain grip on the position.
  
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #32 - 01/19/15 at 18:05:00
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Not only does the Rios book deal with that variation, if I recall correctly that chapter is the free excerpt that is available.  The author was fairly optimistic about White's chances in this structure, which was a little bit surprising to me.

I had always viewed these lines as poor cowardly cousins of the "real" Benoni structure with ...exd5, cxd5.  Certainly Black can get in trouble if he can't arrange to exchange any minor pieces before White develops.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #31 - 01/19/15 at 16:15:34
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That of course is also comparable to old stuff; in the version without a tempo loss by White, the ...Bh6 approach has been commonly considered +=.  In one of the first major games in the non-tempo-loss version, Kavalek even played exactly as in that van Kampen variation, with his opponent Botvinnik having the added move Rf2 at the end.  Though the game was drawn, apparently ...Ne5 was just bad in that case.

Incidentally a forthcoming pawn-structure book by GM Rios has a chapter on this general kind of thing, which he calls the Symmetric Benoni.  (I think it was called the Russian Benoni by Steffen Zeuthen, a seemingly mysterious guy who wrote some Benoni books and co-authored Zoom 001 with Larsen.)  I was hardly surprised to see that Rios uses a certain game in which Spassky managed to strangle Fischer in '92.
  
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Vass
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #30 - 01/19/15 at 09:35:19
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topandkas wrote on 01/16/15 at 22:36:16:
And what do you propose after the natural 11...Bh6 12.0-0 Bxe3 13. fxe3 Qe7 14.e4 a6 15.Qd2 Ne5 16.Nxe5 Qxe5 as also suggested by Van Kampen!? This looks quite equal too me and White's advantage is symbolic if any...

It's symbolic, of course. I never expected to achieve better chances right after the opening if black had played 11...Bh6
Still, white has space, a semi-opened "f"-file, a chance to play a2-a4-a5 on the queen's side, Rf1-f2 and Ra1-f1 on the king's side (related to a future g2-g4 advance if possible), the black queen is not a good piece for e4-e5 advance blockade, therefore black has to keep its knight on d7 (not on e5, because the f6 square becomes weaker), thus standing on the c8-bishop's way, f7-f5 seems impossible... In fact, black has to wait and prevent any active white's plan while shuffling its pieces around. I don't see any active plan for black - please, correct me if I'm wrong!
Here I post all the games I've found after 11...Bh6. It's significant that these games end up with 1-0 or 1/2 result only.  Wink

  
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topandkas
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #29 - 01/16/15 at 22:36:16
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Vass wrote on 01/13/15 at 08:44:34:
Studying carefully what John Watson analyzed in his wonderful book I've won two correspondence chess games as a first player. My preferences went for 6.Bg5 in both games and my opponents played exd5, Nbd7 and Re8+ (according to standard) with a7-a6 a2-a4 included in one of these games. No matter how black twisted and turned (early b7-b5 was never played, indeed), white had a stable, though not very big advantage which I was able to turn into win:





So, it's obvious that I think 6.Bg5 is better than 6.Be3 and the loss of tempo is intentional here (white wants c7-c5 to be played) in order to receive a better pawn structure c4-d5 against c5-d6, thus gaining advantage in space.  Wink


And what do you propose after the natural 11...Bh6 12.0-0 Bxe3 13. fxe3 Qe7 14.e4 a6 15.Qd2 Ne5 16.Nxe5 Qxe5 as also suggested by Van Kampen!? This looks quite equal too me and White's advantage is symbolic if any...
  
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #28 - 01/13/15 at 16:36:08
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That's interesting.  A point of comparison:  if in Vass's first game we have Black play 14...f5, there's some old stuff in which with Rae1 added, it was given as equal after Bg5 ...Qb6 by Polugaevsky, while with Rfe1 added, it was given as equal after Bg5 ...Qb6 by (Austrian GM Josef) Klinger.
  
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Vass
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #27 - 01/13/15 at 08:44:34
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Studying carefully what John Watson analyzed in his wonderful book I've won two correspondence chess games as a first player. My preferences went for 6.Bg5 in both games and my opponents played exd5, Nbd7 and Re8+ (according to standard) with a7-a6 a2-a4 included in one of these games. No matter how black twisted and turned (early b7-b5 was never played, indeed), white had a stable, though not very big advantage which I was able to turn into win:





So, it's obvious that I think 6.Bg5 is better than 6.Be3 and the loss of tempo is intentional here (white wants c7-c5 to be played) in order to receive a better pawn structure c4-d5 against c5-d6, thus gaining advantage in space.  Wink
  
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #26 - 01/12/15 at 21:49:15
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I just want to point out that my original comment about Bg5 or Be3 was made in reference to Benoni structures; obviously things are different if White responds to x...exd5 with 7.exd5.  And everything comes down to specifics, anyway.

But my original point was that after an early dark-squared bishop move in the King's Indian in general, a switch to the Benoni is often justified, especially when the Bishop goes to e3.  Hence on an early x.Be3 by White, y...c5 often becomes a more viable option than it normally is.

But again it all comes down to specifics, and I don't want to get too carried away with generalizations.
  
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #25 - 01/12/15 at 21:14:40
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(Made it!) For that matter, why not (5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5) 9...Nbd7 10.Nf3 Re8+ 11.Be3 (all best play according to Watson, though 11.Kf1 "has been played exclusively here") and now 11...b5!?

In the corr. games tony37 gave, the knight goes to d7 anyway, so here ...Re8 is a free tempo, though there is the downside that Nxb5 comes with tempo on d6 (and if that is sacrificed, on e8).

Edit: Nxb5 looks effective for White in both this line and after 9...b5 (with 6.Bg5); The original Be3/Nf3 version of 9...b5 works because the bishop is not yet on d3 and 10.Nxb5 Ne4 is strong.

But 5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5 h6 10.Be3 Na6 (by analogy with tony37's 8.Bd3 line above) is still interesting. The ...h6 pawn is a slight problem for Black, but maybe he's still fine.
« Last Edit: 01/12/15 at 22:26:24 by Stigma »  

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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #24 - 01/12/15 at 20:47:57
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It's unfortunate that Watson didn't mention this 9...b5 move at all, but I guess you can't cover everything... In addition to 8.Bd3, he claims 8.dxe6 Bxe6 9.Nf3 is "a safe alternate lines" - which I take to mean "roughly equal".

tony37 wrote on 01/12/15 at 20:05:53:
ErictheRed wrote on 01/12/15 at 03:24:41:
And now believe it or not, the most popular move in this position, played by such great players as Karpov, Timman, and Korchnoi, is.... 9.Bg5! 

yes, but the reverse can happen too:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 O-O 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 Re8+ and now best according to Watson (and I agree) is 11.Be3
which is why I thought 6.Be3 was better against 6...c5 than 6.Bg5, but 9...b5 is the spoiler for white

Watson thinks White has some advantage even with this loss of a tempo - do you disagree with that?

Since we're comparing Be3 and Bg5 lines, I wonder whether Black can use the same ...b5 idea with 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 etc., i.e. flick in 9...h6 10.Be3 b5!?. The h6 pawn is now a weakness, but with Black playing dynamically, White may not have time to exploit it? Will analyze later, got to catch the grocery store now before it closes!
  

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tony37
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Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #23 - 01/12/15 at 20:05:53
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/12/15 at 03:24:41:
And now believe it or not, the most popular move in this position, played by such great players as Karpov, Timman, and Korchnoi, is.... 9.Bg5! 

yes, but the reverse can happen too:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 O-O 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 Re8+ and now best according to Watson (and I agree) is 11.Be3
which is why I thought 6.Be3 was better against 6...c5 than 6.Bg5, but 9...b5 is the spoiler for white
  
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