Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3 (Read 22366 times)
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #37 - 06/24/19 at 06:39:05
Post Tools
stockhausen wrote on 06/24/19 at 06:17:11:
Anyone have any new insight on this? Looks like this has gone back into fashion as people are now playing 5.h3 O-O 6.Be3 c5 7.Nf3 aiming for a Maroczy Bind.

Well, it is addressed again in the latest update ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
stockhausen
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
so much!

Posts: 42
Joined: 01/19/19
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #36 - 06/24/19 at 06:17:11
Post Tools
Anyone have any new insight on this? Looks like this has gone back into fashion as people are now playing 5.h3 O-O 6.Be3 c5 7.Nf3 aiming for a Maroczy Bind.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #35 - 01/19/15 at 20:35:22
Post Tools
One case of ...Rxe5 in the old version which stuck in my memory was a game between Joel Lautier and Yacov Murey.  Let's just say that losing one tempo with White may not make a lot of difference, but losing two is probably not recommended ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
topandkas
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 74
Joined: 11/05/09
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #34 - 01/19/15 at 20:13:03
Post Tools
On a side note, in the games posted by Vass, my engine(s) incidentally seem to prefer 13...Rxe5 but I'm sure both players had a look at this as well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
topandkas
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 74
Joined: 11/05/09
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #33 - 01/19/15 at 20:07:52
Post Tools
I'm not an avid correspondence player like Vass (but a reasonably strong OTB player) but I think overall my impression is that Black should be holding a draw reasonably comfortably with optimal play. I agree that ...f7-f5 is probably just a pipedream and at best  Black can hope for ...b7-b5 with subsequent liquidations on the queenside. Black essentially has to content himself with shuffling around pieces in a cramped position but should be okay. Therefore, in practical OTB play I'd imagine this could prove difficult for Black but from a theoretical point of view and in correspondence play, I really don't think White has much.

Maybe I will have a more in-depth look at the position at some point, and if I find any ways for Black to activate his position Ill let you know but for now White does seem to have a certain grip on the position.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
yolocounty
Junior Member
**
Offline


Yes, I push wood, why
do you ask?

Posts: 63
Location: Yolo County
Joined: 07/02/14
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #32 - 01/19/15 at 18:05:00
Post Tools
Not only does the Rios book deal with that variation, if I recall correctly that chapter is the free excerpt that is available.  The author was fairly optimistic about White's chances in this structure, which was a little bit surprising to me.

I had always viewed these lines as poor cowardly cousins of the "real" Benoni structure with ...exd5, cxd5.  Certainly Black can get in trouble if he can't arrange to exchange any minor pieces before White develops.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #31 - 01/19/15 at 16:15:34
Post Tools
That of course is also comparable to old stuff; in the version without a tempo loss by White, the ...Bh6 approach has been commonly considered +=.  In one of the first major games in the non-tempo-loss version, Kavalek even played exactly as in that van Kampen variation, with his opponent Botvinnik having the added move Rf2 at the end.  Though the game was drawn, apparently ...Ne5 was just bad in that case.

Incidentally a forthcoming pawn-structure book by GM Rios has a chapter on this general kind of thing, which he calls the Symmetric Benoni.  (I think it was called the Russian Benoni by Steffen Zeuthen, a seemingly mysterious guy who wrote some Benoni books and co-authored Zoom 001 with Larsen.)  I was hardly surprised to see that Rios uses a certain game in which Spassky managed to strangle Fischer in '92.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1105
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #30 - 01/19/15 at 09:35:19
Post Tools
topandkas wrote on 01/16/15 at 22:36:16:
And what do you propose after the natural 11...Bh6 12.0-0 Bxe3 13. fxe3 Qe7 14.e4 a6 15.Qd2 Ne5 16.Nxe5 Qxe5 as also suggested by Van Kampen!? This looks quite equal too me and White's advantage is symbolic if any...

It's symbolic, of course. I never expected to achieve better chances right after the opening if black had played 11...Bh6
Still, white has space, a semi-opened "f"-file, a chance to play a2-a4-a5 on the queen's side, Rf1-f2 and Ra1-f1 on the king's side (related to a future g2-g4 advance if possible), the black queen is not a good piece for e4-e5 advance blockade, therefore black has to keep its knight on d7 (not on e5, because the f6 square becomes weaker), thus standing on the c8-bishop's way, f7-f5 seems impossible... In fact, black has to wait and prevent any active white's plan while shuffling its pieces around. I don't see any active plan for black - please, correct me if I'm wrong!
Here I post all the games I've found after 11...Bh6. It's significant that these games end up with 1-0 or 1/2 result only.  Wink

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
topandkas
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 74
Joined: 11/05/09
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #29 - 01/16/15 at 22:36:16
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 01/13/15 at 08:44:34:
Studying carefully what John Watson analyzed in his wonderful book I've won two correspondence chess games as a first player. My preferences went for 6.Bg5 in both games and my opponents played exd5, Nbd7 and Re8+ (according to standard) with a7-a6 a2-a4 included in one of these games. No matter how black twisted and turned (early b7-b5 was never played, indeed), white had a stable, though not very big advantage which I was able to turn into win:





So, it's obvious that I think 6.Bg5 is better than 6.Be3 and the loss of tempo is intentional here (white wants c7-c5 to be played) in order to receive a better pawn structure c4-d5 against c5-d6, thus gaining advantage in space.  Wink


And what do you propose after the natural 11...Bh6 12.0-0 Bxe3 13. fxe3 Qe7 14.e4 a6 15.Qd2 Ne5 16.Nxe5 Qxe5 as also suggested by Van Kampen!? This looks quite equal too me and White's advantage is symbolic if any...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #28 - 01/13/15 at 16:36:08
Post Tools
That's interesting.  A point of comparison:  if in Vass's first game we have Black play 14...f5, there's some old stuff in which with Rae1 added, it was given as equal after Bg5 ...Qb6 by Polugaevsky, while with Rfe1 added, it was given as equal after Bg5 ...Qb6 by (Austrian GM Josef) Klinger.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vass
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1105
Joined: 06/22/11
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #27 - 01/13/15 at 08:44:34
Post Tools
Studying carefully what John Watson analyzed in his wonderful book I've won two correspondence chess games as a first player. My preferences went for 6.Bg5 in both games and my opponents played exd5, Nbd7 and Re8+ (according to standard) with a7-a6 a2-a4 included in one of these games. No matter how black twisted and turned (early b7-b5 was never played, indeed), white had a stable, though not very big advantage which I was able to turn into win:





So, it's obvious that I think 6.Bg5 is better than 6.Be3 and the loss of tempo is intentional here (white wants c7-c5 to be played) in order to receive a better pawn structure c4-d5 against c5-d6, thus gaining advantage in space.  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #26 - 01/12/15 at 21:49:15
Post Tools
I just want to point out that my original comment about Bg5 or Be3 was made in reference to Benoni structures; obviously things are different if White responds to x...exd5 with 7.exd5.  And everything comes down to specifics, anyway.

But my original point was that after an early dark-squared bishop move in the King's Indian in general, a switch to the Benoni is often justified, especially when the Bishop goes to e3.  Hence on an early x.Be3 by White, y...c5 often becomes a more viable option than it normally is.

But again it all comes down to specifics, and I don't want to get too carried away with generalizations.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3193
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #25 - 01/12/15 at 21:14:40
Post Tools
(Made it!) For that matter, why not (5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5) 9...Nbd7 10.Nf3 Re8+ 11.Be3 (all best play according to Watson, though 11.Kf1 "has been played exclusively here") and now 11...b5!?

In the corr. games tony37 gave, the knight goes to d7 anyway, so here ...Re8 is a free tempo, though there is the downside that Nxb5 comes with tempo on d6 (and if that is sacrificed, on e8).

Edit: Nxb5 looks effective for White in both this line and after 9...b5 (with 6.Bg5); The original Be3/Nf3 version of 9...b5 works because the bishop is not yet on d3 and 10.Nxb5 Ne4 is strong.

But 5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5 h6 10.Be3 Na6 (by analogy with tony37's 8.Bd3 line above) is still interesting. The ...h6 pawn is a slight problem for Black, but maybe he's still fine.
« Last Edit: 01/12/15 at 22:26:24 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3193
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #24 - 01/12/15 at 20:47:57
Post Tools
It's unfortunate that Watson didn't mention this 9...b5 move at all, but I guess you can't cover everything... In addition to 8.Bd3, he claims 8.dxe6 Bxe6 9.Nf3 is "a safe alternate lines" - which I take to mean "roughly equal".

tony37 wrote on 01/12/15 at 20:05:53:
ErictheRed wrote on 01/12/15 at 03:24:41:
And now believe it or not, the most popular move in this position, played by such great players as Karpov, Timman, and Korchnoi, is.... 9.Bg5! 

yes, but the reverse can happen too:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 O-O 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 Re8+ and now best according to Watson (and I agree) is 11.Be3
which is why I thought 6.Be3 was better against 6...c5 than 6.Bg5, but 9...b5 is the spoiler for white

Watson thinks White has some advantage even with this loss of a tempo - do you disagree with that?

Since we're comparing Be3 and Bg5 lines, I wonder whether Black can use the same ...b5 idea with 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 etc., i.e. flick in 9...h6 10.Be3 b5!?. The h6 pawn is now a weakness, but with Black playing dynamically, White may not have time to exploit it? Will analyze later, got to catch the grocery store now before it closes!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 616
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #23 - 01/12/15 at 20:05:53
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 01/12/15 at 03:24:41:
And now believe it or not, the most popular move in this position, played by such great players as Karpov, Timman, and Korchnoi, is.... 9.Bg5! 

yes, but the reverse can happen too:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 O-O 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 exd5 9.exd5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 Re8+ and now best according to Watson (and I agree) is 11.Be3
which is why I thought 6.Be3 was better against 6...c5 than 6.Bg5, but 9...b5 is the spoiler for white
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 616
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #22 - 01/12/15 at 13:02:25
Post Tools
CourtneyGrant wrote on 01/12/15 at 10:36:11:
But I have one last question: 
In the 8.Bd3 line, what do you think of 8...exd5 9.exd5 Na6 10.Nf3 Nb4 11.Bb1 b5 12.Nxb5?

12...Ba6 is strong here, one of white's problems is that the g7 bishop is pointing at the unprotected b2 pawn (+a1 rook), for example 13.a4? Nfxd5 14.cxd5 Bxb2
white's only playable move seems 13.O-O, now 13...Nfxd5 doesn't work out well because of 14.Bg5 and there's no queen check, so black should play 13...Nbxd5 or 13...Bxb5 14.cxb5 Qb6 (or Rb8)
yet another option is 12...Qb6 13.O-O Nbxd5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Crapov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 52
Joined: 12/16/07
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #21 - 01/12/15 at 12:40:20
Post Tools
@kylemeister. Van Kampen does not analyse specific games other than the opening moves.
Kavalek-Kasparov starts 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 OO 6.h3 e5 7.d5 Na6 (Van Kampen recommends 7...Nh5) 8.Be3 Nh5 9.Nh2 which could transpose to Van Kampen's line 7...Nh5 8.Nh2 Na6 if White would play 9.Be3 (instead of the main line 9.g3) but it is not covered in the video.

That 9...b5 line looks wild and interesting. I'm just wondering how practical it would be to prepare it for a sideline that I've never faced, even in blitz. But I don't know, maybe it doesn't even require much preparation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CourtneyGrant
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: 01/09/15
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #20 - 01/12/15 at 10:36:11
Post Tools
Wow, that 9...b5 analysis is really great!
I love those correspondence games posted by tony37...just the dynamic stuff I was looking for!
I think we've found an exciting antidote to 6.Be3!

But I have one last question: 
In the 8.Bd3 line, what do you think of 8...exd5 9.exd5 Na6 10.Nf3 Nb4 11.Bb1 b5 12.Nxb5?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #19 - 01/12/15 at 03:58:18
Post Tools
Indeed I recall 9. Bg5 putting that line under a cloud not long after the nice Beliavsky-Nunn game.  Seems a bit of an outlier though ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #18 - 01/12/15 at 03:24:41
Post Tools
tony37 wrote on 01/11/15 at 20:37:20:
...really interesting, now 6.Be3 just looks inferior to 6.Bg5


That's essentially my view; I don't know what the bishop does on e3 if it isn't helping with the c4-c5 push.  But then, I'm the guy who's essentially played nothing but the 6.Bg5 Saemisch against the King's Indian his whole life!

One thing that really clued me in to e3 being a subpar square for the Bishop, at least in Benoni structures, was this position:



And now believe it or not, the most popular move in this position, played by such great players as Karpov, Timman, and Korchnoi, is.... 9.Bg5! 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #17 - 01/12/15 at 00:21:16
Post Tools
Just curious, does van Kampen show the (I would think, classic) game Kavalek-Kasparov?  (More generally, one might wonder to what extent he/other young GMs tend to focus on the latest stuff in these opening videos ...)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Crapov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 52
Joined: 12/16/07
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #16 - 01/11/15 at 22:29:28
Post Tools
Hi Courtney. 6...Na6 is also possible and recommended in my KID bible Play the King's Indian. For example, 7.Bd3 e5 8.d5 Nd7.
7.Nf3 e5 8.d5 Nh5 could transpose to the lines given by Van Kampen in lecture 21 after, for example, 9.Nh2, although White gets an extra option with 9.Nd2.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 616
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #15 - 01/11/15 at 20:37:20
Post Tools
I hadn't looked at 9...b5 before, and yes, it seems to work
I found 2 correspondence games with this:



white can avoid this with 6.Be3 c5 7.d5 e6 8.Bd3 (when 8...exd5 9.exd5 b5 can be answered with 10.Nxb5) but then 8...exd5 9.exd5 Na6 10.Nf3 (10.Nge2 Nb4 11.Bb1 b5; 10.a3 Nc7) Nb4 11.Bb1 (11.Be2 Bf5) b5 works for black
really interesting, now 6.Be3 just looks inferior to 6.Bg5
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #14 - 01/11/15 at 17:57:00
Post Tools
That reminded me of Velimirovic playing ...b5 in the position with Bd3 and ...Re8 in, when Nxb5 (as played against him by Timman) was considered to lead to an edge for White.  (I also recall the Dutch player Michael Riemens crushing someone with that ...b5 a few years ago, but that fellow didn't continue like Timman ...)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #13 - 01/11/15 at 17:05:22
Post Tools
Really, Tony37?  I guess I've never believed in these exd5 lines for White very much.  The computer even seems to think that the immediate 9...b5!?, trying to take advantage of White's move order, is pretty much equal.  I remember these ...b5 pawn sac ideas from similar positions (perhaps the Averbakh).

Of course, there's an old line that goes 9...Re8 10.Bd3 Bh6, and I don't remember the theoretical verdict there--maybe White is better, he scores pretty well.  And perhaps 10...Rxe3 (!? or ?!) is worth a shot.  Kylemeister probably knows this stuff better than I do.

But okay, point taken; White doesn't want to play a Benoni position, he wants to play x...exd5 y.exd5, and in that particular position perhaps it's best to remain flexible with 6...Nbd7.  Still, I think that with 9...b5!? Black should be more or less OK, as White's kingside development is very slow:




Edit: For some reason I can't get the PGN button to work, and I had to manually type in "[ pgn ]" and "[ / pgn ]". 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #12 - 01/11/15 at 16:33:52
Post Tools
CourtneyGrant wrote on 01/11/15 at 12:20:53:
What to do after 8.Nf3 (or 8.Bd3) exd5 9.exd5?
Watson analyses various possibilities for black but none of those seems good  Sad


I wondered what the 1990s Watson would have had Black play there.  After 5. h3 0-0 6. Nf3 he indicated that he wasn't a fan of 6...c5.  In that case 7. d5 e6 8. Bd3 ed 9. ed (9. cd is also a big move here) Re8+ 10. Be3 (as in tony37's game) is an old main line (I associate it with games involving such people as Botvinnik, Polugaevsky and Kavalek*) which is perhaps considered +=.  In the  6. Be3 case, offhand it seemed plausible to me that Black might have something preferable to 8...ed 9. ed Re8.  I gather than in the more recent book Watson thinks not.

*incidentally, analysis of the critical phase of one of those games can be found at http://en.chessbase.com/post/kavalek-in-huffington-winning-while-losing
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CourtneyGrant
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: 01/09/15
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #11 - 01/11/15 at 12:20:53
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 01/11/15 at 05:57:31:
In line with that, the 1990s version of Watson gave 6...c5 ("a good option") 7. d5 e6 "= will lead to a Benoni where White does not usually place his bishop on e3 at such an early stage," and 7. dc as leading to =/unclear with best play.



What to do after 8.Nf3 (or 8.Bd3) exd5 9.exd5?
Watson analyses various possibilities for black but none of those seems good  Sad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 616
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #10 - 01/11/15 at 12:03:21
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 01/11/15 at 05:29:08:
6...Nbd7 certainly has some logic, since White has covered the g4 square Black doesn't need to keep the option of ...Ng4 open anymore.

I'm sure that any reasonable King's Indian setup is playable here, but for some reason my chess education tells me to switch to ...c5! when White plays a system with an early dark-squared Bishop move.  Especially with the Bishop on e3, White isn't going to get much of anything by going into a Benoni.  I think the only real question here is how 6...c5 7.dxc5 works out, as 7.d5 and 7.Nf3 should be perfectly fine for Black, in my opinion.

I think 6...c5 is exactly what white wants when he plays 6.Be3 (not when he plays 6.Bg5), playing exd5 iso cxd5 if black goes for a modern benoni
I won the following correspondence game with this, admittedly my opponent didn't play that well but he was worse during the whole game

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #9 - 01/11/15 at 08:37:30
Post Tools
5.h3 Nbd7 was also recommended by Bologan on his ChessBase DVD about the KID. Unfortunately he forgot to cover 5.Nf3 0-0 6.h3, when the ideas connected with 5...Nbd7 no longer work.

As Kylemeister wrote Black can delay castling here and continue after e.g. 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Be3 e5 7.d5 Nc5 with ...a5, ...h5-h4, ...Nh5 and sometimes ...Bh6 to get a grip on the dark squares.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #8 - 01/11/15 at 05:57:31
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 01/11/15 at 05:29:08:
I'm sure that any reasonable King's Indian setup is playable here, but for some reason my chess education tells me to switch to ...c5! when White plays a system with an early dark-squared Bishop move.  Especially with the Bishop on e3, White isn't going to get much of anything by going into a Benoni.  I think the only real question here is how 6...c5 7.dxc5 works out, as 7.d5 and 7.Nf3 should be perfectly fine for Black, in my opinion.


In line with that, the 1990s version of Watson gave 6...c5 ("a good option") 7. d5 e6 "= will lead to a Benoni where White does not usually place his bishop on e3 at such an early stage," and 7. dc as leading to =/unclear with best play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2514
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #7 - 01/11/15 at 05:29:08
Post Tools
6...Nbd7 certainly has some logic, since White has covered the g4 square Black doesn't need to keep the option of ...Ng4 open anymore.

I'm sure that any reasonable King's Indian setup is playable here, but for some reason my chess education tells me to switch to ...c5! when White plays a system with an early dark-squared Bishop move.  Especially with the Bishop on e3, White isn't going to get much of anything by going into a Benoni.  I think the only real question here is how 6...c5 7.dxc5 works out, as 7.d5 and 7.Nf3 should be perfectly fine for Black, in my opinion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4706
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #6 - 01/11/15 at 00:37:36
Post Tools
It might be of some interest to compare the stuff in Watson's 1. d4 book to an earlier book he did, "The Unconventional King's Indian."  Back then he gave a number of ways of playing by Black as leading to = or unclear, but seemed to have a liking for 5...Nbd7.  ("This retains the option of ...c5 or ...e5, depending upon what White does, and also saves a tempo on ...0-0 for attacking the center.  This can be particularly significant when Black plays ...e5, because, in contrast to the 5. Nf3 0-0 6. h3 lines, White has no time to get in Nf3, Be3, and then Nd2 in order to protect his e-pawn, which is the ideal arrangement in so many King's Indian lines.  Similarly, he lacks time for g4/Nge2-g3, and may have to defend the e-pawn with either Qc2 or f3, both of which have drawbacks.")
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3193
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #5 - 01/10/15 at 23:50:04
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 01/10/15 at 09:02:53:
But to be honest, learning the KID as a 3rd or 4th defence sounds tough to me. I remember Kotronias recommended to have one solid alternative to the KID.

It's probably not a permanent thing, just widening my horizons a bit.

I'm a bit on the fence now whether I really have time to make a serious effort at further improvement, but if I do, 1.d4 2.c4 will be my main choice as White. And then it pays to have some experience with the most popular defences from the other side. I've always found I understand an opening better if I've tried it as both White and Black. And the KID is undeniably very popular!

To be a bit more on topic: When looking at the h3 lines, I also remember marking this h3/Be3 setup as one where it's far from obvious how Black should play, and White is (was?) scoring well in practice.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 645
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #4 - 01/10/15 at 09:02:53
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 01/10/15 at 00:03:49:
Out of curiosity, what does Van Kampen cover against the Classical?


Van Kampen recommends indeed the Mar del Plata.

If you are looking for an alternative, maybe Dejan Bojkov´s coverage of 7...exd4 in his book "Modernized: The King´s Indian Defence" is of interest to you.

But to be honest, learning the KID as a 3rd or 4th defence sounds tough to me. I remember Kotronias recommended to have one solid alternative to the KID.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CourtneyGrant
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: 01/09/15
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #3 - 01/10/15 at 01:45:53
Post Tools
In reply to 7...a5 Watson recommends the immediate 8.c5 or 8.Nf3 Na6 9.Be2 (on 9.Nd2 Ne8 is a good reply as he himself admits) Nc5 (he also considers 9...Ne8 or 9...Nh5 but omits 9...Nd7 which seems adequate).

Eventually both these lines doesn't look very threatening for black...maybe I am wrongly overestimating white's chances in this type of positions with an early g4 push.

Excuse me for my english.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3193
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #2 - 01/10/15 at 00:03:49
Post Tools
CourtneyGrant wrote on 01/09/15 at 22:08:52:
Hi people,
recently I started to play King's Indian and I like GM Robin Van Kampen chess24 video repertoire.

Out of curiosity, what does Van Kampen cover against the Classical? I'm thinking of dabbling in the King's Indian, but it would be absurd to learn the whole Mar del Plata/Bayonet etc. complex for a 3rd or 4th defence, so I'm always looking for playable alternatives!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1778
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: 5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
Reply #1 - 01/09/15 at 23:59:24
Post Tools
Hi Courtney - I don't know what exactly Watson's recommendation does, but a solid start would be the traditional 6...e5 7.d5 a5, with ...Na6 to follow, e.g.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CourtneyGrant
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: 01/09/15
5.h3 0-0 6.Be3
01/09/15 at 22:08:52
Post Tools
Hi people,
recently I started to play King's Indian and I like GM Robin Van Kampen chess24 video repertoire.
But there's this line with Be3 (suggested by IM Watson in his 1.d4 repertoire book) he doesn't cover (6.Bg5 c5 and 6.Nf3 e5 are covered).
What's the better approach? 6...e5 or 6...c5 or some other plan?
Thank you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo