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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black (Read 17201 times)
CarriedbyGg
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #21 - 04/06/15 at 15:53:17
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Maybe you can try out the Open Spanish? But it's not so easy to find a nice antidote to the Nbd2 stuff Cheesy
  
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Gut Gambit
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #20 - 02/15/15 at 20:52:23
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Okay. What about the Schliemann (or Jaenisch) gambit then ( 1.e4-e5 2.Nf3-Nc6 3.Bb5-f5). And maybe combine it with Bird`s variation (3.Bb5-Nd4) so that you`re  not that easy to predict for your opponents...   

The Schliemann is a gambit yes, but not such a wild one I dare say. I think black gets his share of the play. And the Bird-variation is maybe underrated. 

At least these should be playable systems if you like them. As a bonus you will not have to face the exchange variation if adopting this repertoaire.

Of course its not strickly the Ruy Lopez, but maybe you dont mind...?

I will also mention the Moller variation: 1.e4-e5 2.Nf3-Nc6 3.Bb5-a6 4.Ba4-Nf6 5.0-0-Bc5!? This has some nuances compared to the neo-Archangel
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #19 - 02/15/15 at 10:22:43
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 02/11/15 at 23:16:31:
BobbyDigital80 wrote on 02/09/15 at 06:20:29:
I'm about 2150 USCF and 2050 FIDE. I guess I'd say the sort of player I am is that I like activity with a pretty strong positional basis. I don't like wild gambits or "boring" openings.


Well. I suppose lots of openings would suit you then, the Marshall and Gajewski Variations are active and positionally based (not 'wild' and definitely not 'boring') the Aronian stuff and Classical are fine, too (you're unlikely to play against anyone who knows any 'refutation', should one exist), especially the first which offers active positional play. Smiley


I do like the Marshall but White has some lines where he can force a draw in the opening, like:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 Rae8 17. Nd2 Qh5 18. a4 Re6 19. axb5 axb5 20. Ne4 Bf5 21. Bd2 Rxe4 22. Rxe4 Nf6 23. f3 Qg6 24. Bc2 Bxg3 with a forced draw.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #18 - 02/11/15 at 23:16:31
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 02/09/15 at 06:20:29:
I'm about 2150 USCF and 2050 FIDE. I guess I'd say the sort of player I am is that I like activity with a pretty strong positional basis. I don't like wild gambits or "boring" openings.


Well. I suppose lots of openings would suit you then, the Marshall and Gajewski Variations are active and positionally based (not 'wild' and definitely not 'boring') the Aronian stuff and Classical are fine, too (you're unlikely to play against anyone who knows any 'refutation', should one exist), especially the first which offers active positional play. Smiley
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #17 - 02/11/15 at 18:43:16
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I have had a soft spot for the Nge7 stuff; some games that stuck in my memory are Fischer-Pachman, Domnitz-Pachman and Sax-Portisch.  Though as far as I know, the Modern Steinitz has long been generally thought to enable White to attain the theoretical holy grail (+=).  I recall looking at some bits of Taylor's book and in one main line (involving a dxe5 ...dxe5 structure with ...b5) which he portrayed as nothing for White, it seemed to me that White should have a little something.  I know, it would be shocking for a repertoire book to display some bias.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #16 - 02/11/15 at 17:37:10
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Hi Bobby:  I was not going to say anything but since this topic seems to be still unresolved, I will mention the Modern Steinitz.  Capablanca wrote in Chess FUndamentals that he favored it particularly where he wanted to play for a win as Black.  (!!!)  (Contrast to Capa's comments on the Open: "Of all the Ruy Lopez defenses, I like this [Open] the least..." [Capa then described a game where he commented during the early middlegame that Black was already lost due to the backward c-pawn.])

Anyway, Tim Taylor's book is a fine starting point based on Keres' games.  I note that Taylor only covers Ng8-f6 setups, and you can get a lot of mileage out of Ne7 instead, and the lines with Nh6, f7-f6 and Nf7 are even more ambitious still.  There are tons of great Capablanca, Alekhine, and Keres games in the Modern Steinitz.

Among modern GMs, Robert Hess is the guy to check out.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #15 - 02/09/15 at 06:20:29
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 02/08/15 at 10:19:17:
BobbyDigital80 wrote on 01/31/15 at 23:16:02:
Does anyone have any suggestions for an active Ruy Lopez repertoire for black?


A couple of questions, what level are we talking about, and what sort of player are you?
I've played a lot of risky Spanish lines as Black over the years, and have only very rarely found myself facing critical variations, and this includes playing quite strong GMs! Obviously if you are playing opponents somewhat weaker than this then there is a lot of choice.


Hi Tony,
I'm about 2150 USCF and 2050 FIDE. I guess I'd say the sort of player I am is that I like activity with a pretty strong positional basis. I don't like wild gambits or "boring" openings. I also don't like to play lines as black where White can pretty easily achieve a draw in the opening.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #14 - 02/08/15 at 21:06:56
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In the above mentioned book the authors follow the game Shennum-Rodin, email 2001 up to move 13 as their main line and consider Black to be slightly better. Perhaps White can improve somewhere but the combination of Bg2 with Ne2 doesn´t feel right to me when Black has opened up the centre with ...d5.

The knight is better off on f3 in this case. To get back on topic, in the Cozio Black obviously doesn´t have the option of putting the knight on f6.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #13 - 02/08/15 at 20:28:49
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I wonder just where the disagreement lies re that Vienna line; such folk as Alexander Finkel (in a 2012 Yearbook article), John Nunn and Reuben Fine have considered it as leading to equality.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #12 - 02/08/15 at 20:03:40
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Stigma wrote on 02/08/15 at 17:32:46:
Are you talking about style/taste here, or are you actually saying this Vienna line is bad enough that White isn't even equal?


Both. I´m with Lysyj & Ovetchkin here who end their coverage of this line of the Vienna in "The Open Games for Black" with =+.

Stigma wrote on 02/08/15 at 17:32:46:
Maybe the 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nge7 move order gives move options against this attempted Vienna transposition, I'm not sure.


It might, but then you would also have to reckon with 5.Bb3. Dreev considers White to be better here. I haven´t looked at this since one of the points of the Cozio to me is to avoid the Exchange Variation.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #11 - 02/08/15 at 17:32:46
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Fllg wrote on 02/07/15 at 20:50:43:
I am not in favour of the Cozio because White can simply play 4.0-0 g6 5.d4 exd4 6.Nxd4 Bg7 7.Nxc6 which is bascially a reversed Vienna (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bc5 7.Ne2). Dreev seemingly hasn´t realized this transposition. I played this once with Black last year and didn´t like my knight on e7 one bit. Of course White has also other more ambitious tries but that´s enough to put me off the Cozio.

Are you talking about style/taste here, or are you actually saying this Vienna line is bad enough that White isn't even equal?

Maybe the 3...a6 4.Ba4 Nge7 move order gives move options against this attempted Vienna transposition, I'm not sure.
  

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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #10 - 02/08/15 at 10:19:17
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 01/31/15 at 23:16:02:
Does anyone have any suggestions for an active Ruy Lopez repertoire for black?


A couple of questions, what level are we talking about, and what sort of player are you?
I've played a lot of risky Spanish lines as Black over the years, and have only very rarely found myself facing critical variations, and this includes playing quite strong GMs! Obviously if you are playing opponents somewhat weaker than this then there is a lot of choice.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #9 - 02/08/15 at 01:26:09
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Yeah, I don't trust the Cozio. I probably would play the Marshall if it weren't for pretty much forced lines like 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15. Be3 Bg4 16. Qd3 Rae8 17. Nd2 Qh5 18. a4 Re6 19. axb5 axb5 20. Ne4 Bf5 21. Bd2 Rxe4 22. Rxe4 Nf6 23. f3 Qg6 24. Bc2 Bxg3 =
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #8 - 02/07/15 at 20:50:43
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PANFR wrote on 02/05/15 at 11:41:07:
The problem is that the line advocated by Kosten (5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 7.Be2 Nxe4 8.dxc5 Nxc5 9.b4! Ne6 10.f5!? Ned4 11.Bb2 etc) is extremely unpleasant for Black, and 10.Bb2 is not plain-sailing, either.


You certainly mean 10.f4 Nc6 11.f5!? Ned4 12.Bb2. I agree this is unpleasant for Black. Alternatives are 5...Nxe4 which is also mentioned by Kosten and 8...Nc6!? which prevents b4 and intends to round up the pawn on c5 later.

CarriedbyGg wrote on 02/06/15 at 21:43:09:
What about 3. Nge7? It avoids the Exchange and sets for this double-edged setup involving g6 an a quick liquidation in the centre. Just forgot the name though :x


I am not in favour of the Cozio because White can simply play 4.0-0 g6 5.d4 exd4 6.Nxd4 Bg7 7.Nxc6 which is bascially a reversed Vienna (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.Bg2 Nxc3 6.bxc3 Bc5 7.Ne2). Dreev seemingly hasn´t realized this transposition. I played this once with Black last year and didn´t like my knight on e7 one bit. Of course White has also other more ambitious tries but that´s enough to put me off the Cozio.
  
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Re: Active Ruy Lopez Repertoire for Black
Reply #7 - 02/07/15 at 01:15:13
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nge7 - The Cozio Defence

See also Chess Star: Anti-Spanish. The Cozio Defence by Alexey Dreev
Content: http://www.chess-stars.com/resources/contents_Cozio.pdf
  

What kind of proof is that?
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