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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ponziani Opening. Questions (Read 13256 times)
Marcin
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #18 - 10/23/16 at 13:10:56
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Thank you very, very, much!
  
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Marcin
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #17 - 10/23/16 at 13:10:35
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Great! It is this one! I am really elated! I was looking for this game about 15 years.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #16 - 10/23/16 at 12:58:27
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Marcin wrote on 10/23/16 at 12:37:11:
Hello,

I wonder if anyone has the full game M. Surtees - M. Hebden 1998 played in Ponziani 4. Qa4. I have got only first 16 moves of this game. I would be very grateful for the remaining moves.


I guess you mean this one?
Here's the bare pgn (attached).

It was annotated here at Chess Publishing by Nigel Davies.
  

Surtees_Hebden.pgn ( 0 KB | 190 Downloads )
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Marcin
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #15 - 10/23/16 at 12:37:11
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Hello,

I wonder if anyone has the full game M. Surtees - M. Hebden 1998 played in Ponziani 4. Qa4. I have got only first 16 moves of this game. I would be very grateful for the remaining moves.
  
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RdC
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #14 - 04/17/15 at 17:52:51
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kylemeister wrote on 04/17/15 at 16:15:37:
I'm thinking there was probably an Alekhine miniature with that line


It could well be this one.




  
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #13 - 04/17/15 at 16:15:37
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That looks quite egregious, like something from the 19th century.  I'm thinking there was probably an Alekhine miniature with that line (4...Nf6; kind of similar is 4...Bd7).  I recall as normal something like 7. d3 0-0 8. Be2 Re8 9. Bg5.
  
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RdC
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #12 - 04/17/15 at 09:20:14
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The Ponziani is played relatively infrequently. Main lines can rapidly become very tactical and unbalanced.

Here's a spectacular example from the recent Welsh Championships. At move 8, White is three pawns up. He is however minus "quite a bit" on computer assessments, depending perhaps on the search depth.


  
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #11 - 03/15/15 at 19:04:28
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Shouldn't this thread be in 1.e4 e5 Non-Spanish?
  
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Peekay
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #10 - 02/05/15 at 19:28:54
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I admitted my 4Bd3 fault. Indeed the fourth move for white in this line is 4. d4. If black replies with 4 ...Nxe4 then 5. d5 is a great attack which not only levels up the exchange but also develops a strong presence in the center.

At move 19 I was panicked at his queen having a direct aim at my rook lol. So I played Nd3 to avoid this. Plus, I think it was the best option. 19. Nc3 would have met the brutal reply of 19 ... axb4 after which I'd lose a knight and a pawn for nothing. Moving the rook away from the corner was the best option I think. I don't know why I didn't do it though lol. If he had taken the e4 pawn I think it would have gone in my favour in the long run. I would seal off the queen side with b4 (as I did too) and totally disable his knight and white bishop. And with e file completely free for rooks to trample in, his king unable to castle and his pieces uncoordinated, I'd roll him in the dirt soon. Ah but 22. Rf5 ?? Sad
  
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Othy
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #9 - 02/05/15 at 18:24:03
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I'm hoping the following doesn't sound too harsh.

Peekay wrote on 02/05/15 at 15:20:26:
After 3c3 Nf6

the e4 pawn comes under attack. So anything on move 4 which neglects this threat certainly loses e4 pawn for nothing. The 4Bd3 move is to protect this pawn.

If this threat isn't dealt with immediately, e4 pawn is drowned forever. For example as you guys stated:

4d4 exd4
5cxd4 Nxe4

Which loses the exchange (gaining 1 pawn and losing 2)


As a coach, this line of thinking in a student would indicate to me the student is not ready for the mindset of the Ponziani. This shows a need to study tactics, and forms of compensation for material (initiative, development, center control). Without understanding these dynamics you are misevaluating positions very early on, which makes dedicated opening a study a significant loss of time and resources. Sad

It's immediately back to basics at this point. If my student was not willing to change their opening to an Italian (at this stage I would suggest 4.Ng5 in the Two Knights and the Evan's Gambit against 3...Bc5—4.b4!?) or the King's Gambit, then I would at least suggest they begin playing over a lot of games (especially annotated games) in these openings so they could develop a sense of gambit play and material compensation.

You have already managed to take one suggestion here in the Ponziani and apply it to improve one of your blitz games, but your play in the other game and line of thinking shown here suggest you will benefit a lot more from tactics training and studying master games than from dedicated opening study.

Peekay wrote on 02/05/15 at 17:39:06:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Qe7 3. Be2 a6 4. c3


When your opponent is playing moves like 2...Qe7 and 3...a6, it's time to give up the system of development and develop actively. You don't need the extra center support of 4.c3 because your opponent is not doing their part in fighting for the center. Either 4.Nc3 and 5.d4 here or go for a plan of 4.0-0, 5.Re1, and 6.d4 to break open lines and make that queen feel awkward. Beyond that, when your opponent neglects their development, leaves their king in the center and creates weaknesses (3...a6 and 5...b6) it's time to open the center so your active pieces and open lines can punish them. 22.Rf5 was indeed a blunder that lost the game. But you had another significant blunder prior with 19.Nd3, simply hanging the pawn to 19...Qxe4 when Black would have been better. These are both one move tactics which need to be prioritized over openings in your training.
  
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Peekay
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #8 - 02/05/15 at 17:39:06
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I lost a winning game Sad Sad Sad

One mega blunder and all comes crashing down Sad

[Site "chessdrive.com"]
[Date "February 5, 2015"]
[White "Jiji"]
[Black "कतचट"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Qe7 3. Be2 a6 4. c3 Nc6 5. O-O b6
6. d4 Bb7 7. d5 Na7 8. c4 Nf6 9. Nc3 d6 10. Qa4+ Nd7
11. Be3 h6 12. Qc2 Rg8 13. a4 a5 14. Na2 g5 15. b4 g4
16. Ne1 h5 17. f4 h4 18. fxe5 Qxe5 19. Nd3 Qe7 20. b5 Ne5
21. Nxe5 Qxe5 22. Rf5 Qxa1+
  
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Peekay
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #7 - 02/05/15 at 15:44:23
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Woohoo!!

Here comes my first victory  Cool thanks to 5e5. Here's the game. I'm Jiji

[Date "February 5, 2015"]
[White "Jiji"]
[Black "Gevorgyan from Armemia"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Ng4
6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nc3 h5 8. Be2 g6 9. h3 Nh6 10. Bg5 Ne7
11. O-O d6 12. Qa4+
  
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Peekay
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #6 - 02/05/15 at 15:20:26
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After 3c3 Nf6

the e4 pawn comes under attack. So anything on move 4 which neglects this threat certainly loses e4 pawn for nothing. The 4Bd3 move is to protect this pawn.

If this threat isn't dealt with immediately, e4 pawn is drowned forever. For example as you guys stated:

4d4 exd4
5cxd4 Nxe4

Which loses the exchange (gaining 1 pawn and losing 2)

if 6Bd3 then black can simply withdraw the knight, or worse, he can accept the challenge with ...f5

No!! Wait. I think you're right there. And yes, 5e5 leads to a much more comfortable position.

Thanks. I'd play (and lose Cheesy ) a few games on these lines and report how it goes.

The guidance you guys provide here is truly great <3
« Last Edit: 02/05/15 at 17:19:46 by Peekay »  
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tipau
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #5 - 02/05/15 at 13:34:59
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[quote author=6E5B5B555F473E0 link=1423123617/3#3 date=1423139904
The advantage of 4Bd3 is that it points straight to h8. So if (and usually they do) black castles short side, white only needs a check at h8 with his queen and it's kissing the dust for black (only that I rarely get the opportunity to do this but the possibility is very alluring Cheesy )
[/quote]

If you're looking to improve I'd recommend against playing lines in the hope that you're opponent will fall for a trick in this way. It might work out occasionally now but less and less as you play stronger players.

If you want to stick with the Ponziani I'd recommend looking at 4.d4 (after 3...Nf6). I'm no expert on it but I believe this is what is usually played there. The ideas are:
1) 4...Nxe4 can be met with 5.d5 gaining space followed by winning back the pawn on e5
2) 4...exd4 is met by pushing the other central pawn with 5.e5 followed by re-capturing on d4.

It certainly looks better than 4.Bd3 d5! Besides, you can always put your bishop on d3 later if you want Smiley
  

FIDE: ~2100
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Jupp53
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #4 - 02/05/15 at 13:34:27
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If I were your trainer you would get a ponziani ban with white. And with black you had to play some games with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.Be2 d5 against someone of your strength.

Then I would set aside the ban and give you the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 for the same purpose.

You had to write down the games and do a short analysis with your opponent and tell what you did learn about center, development, coordination of pieces.

If this would work you would stop thinking about 4.Be2.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Peekay
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #3 - 02/05/15 at 12:38:24
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Jupp53 wrote on 02/05/15 at 12:02:01:
4.Bd3 can't be the best as it violates the principles of fast development and piece coordination and fighting against the opponents plans. So after 3.c3 and 4.Bd3 black must have a little advantage or chess is not a logical game.


That is correct. I read some stuff about this opening line and it states that it is not for patzers like me, because one needs to be able to see upto 4 moves ahead when they use this opening line (I can only assess 2 moves ahead).

The advantage of 4Bd3 is that it points straight to h8. So if (and usually they do) black castles short side, white only needs a check at h8 with his queen and it's kissing the dust for black (only that I rarely get the opportunity to do this but the possibility is very alluring Cheesy )

The dynamics of this opening 4Bd3 (as far as I think) allow for a quick black development but his pieces act alone without coordination. On the contrary white develops rather slowly but with outstanding coordination and with all canons pointed at black's king side.

Somehow the computer can use this setup (on white side) to make very surprising and deadly attacks on black's king side but I can't do that Sad
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #2 - 02/05/15 at 12:02:01
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4.Bd3 can't be the best as it violates the principles of fast development and piece coordination and fighting against the opponents plans. So after 3.c3 and 4.Bd3 black must have a little advantage or chess is not a logical game.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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Re: Ponziani Opening. Questions
Reply #1 - 02/05/15 at 09:57:40
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Wouldn't think this was the best way to get properly open/tactical games. The Lopez is objectively a bit better but actually quite slow/strategic.

Something like the two knights/evans?
  
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Peekay
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Ponziani Opening. Questions
02/05/15 at 08:06:57
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When with white, my openings go this way:

1e4 e5
2Nf3 Nc6
3c3.            This 3rd move makes it a Ponziani setup.

Now my effort for this slow move (c3) is to try and establish a strong center game with 4d4

My openings tend to unfold in these lines. Just keep in mind that my aim is to build pressure on black in the center.

3c3 Nf6.   4Bd3 d5.      Advise me how to follow up with this. I tend to provide protection for my e4 pawn with 5Qe2 but it cramps up my game and with my queen knight jammed up, black easily develops faster and steals the initiative.

3c3 Nf6.  4Bd3 d6.   5Bc2 Be7.   6O-O O-O.   7d4 (finally) Bg4.   How do I continue from here? If I try 8dxe5, it is invariably always replied with ...Nxe5 which leaves me feeling exposed and dumb. 8d5 makes them retreat their Q knight but now my white bishop is reduced to being a bodyguard for my e4 pawn and there is NO HOPE for me to use it effectively against the castled king as the pawn structure in the center is closed up. Also, I find ...Bg4 very annoying as it pins my K knight and blackbcan also exchange it for his white bishop. (my plan is to keep him alive and use it against the king for a deadly attack on g7 or h7. ?..Bg4 just makes it all the more frustrating and slow for me Sad

3c3 Nf6.  4Bd3 d6.  5Bc2 Bg4.  5d4 (finally) Qd7
a   6O-O is replied with ...O-O-O which leads to a painfully slow and mentally torturing game.
6d5 Ne7.   7O-O g6.  Then black goes on to fianchetto the cramped up black bishop and castle to king-side. I feel sort of confident here but without any reasonable advantage.

I prefer an open, quick game with sharp attacks. Can I accomplish this with this type of opening or should I go back to the school and learn different variations of the Ruy Lopez or Spanish Game instead?
  
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