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Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? (Read 9503 times)

MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2080 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #8 - 01/29/16 at 10:13:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, yes, but we're answering why no one has played 12.. Qc7 - it feels anti thematic and quite frankly somewhat odd waiting moves like 12 Kh1 shouldn't be making us play anti thematic ideas! I'm sure its a good enough move but, really, almost anything should be Gently amused by the idea of just going 12.. Kh8 (Or exd4 and Re8, and can't see what can be wrong with Rb8 either - like Kh1 its a mildly useful move to have included in most positions.).


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Confused_by_Theory God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 649 Location: Europe Joined: 05/13/15 Gender:	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #7 - 01/29/16 at 08:06:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi. gillbod wrote on 01/28/16 at 20:54:27: While 12...Qc7 seems to be the engine's choice, I'd rather not go this way. If you're going to play ...Qc7 so willingly, why not do it on move 11? Black plays 11...Nd7 because this is the variation he wants to play (11...Qc7 is just different). 12.Kh1 baits black into making some move. 12...Qc7 is one such move and not such an unappealing one because should white play: (13.Nbd2 cxd4 14.cxd4 exd4 and then either 15.Nxd4 Bf6 or 15.Nb3 d3) Black gets reasonable positions. White is thus probably forced into trying 13.d5, but then the 12.Kh1 move looks close to tempo losing. gillbod wrote on 01/28/16 at 20:54:27: Instead why not make use of 11...Nd7 and try out 12...Bf6. After 13.d5, the engine gives white a very modest edge, but this is might be the engine overstating white's space advantage and underestimating black's kingside chances in this King's Indian-ish structure. The key point to remember is that this is not a King's Indian! Black probably needs to regroup carefully and get his offside ...Na5 into play (e.g., something like ...Na5-b7-d8-f7) before going for ...f5. Not supplying many variations here, but it's a closed manoeuvring struggle which should suit many closed-Spanish players. It is a playable setup. If the general idea is to get some KID like play going on the kingside, I don't think the idea is going to be realised though (no knights on kingside, queenside confrontation possible anytime, well defended e4 pawn). Have a nice day.


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gillbod Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 173 Joined: 03/26/13	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #6 - 01/28/16 at 20:54:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm a bit late to this thread. But I've spent a lot of time on the Keres, so thought I'd chip in. While 12...Qc7 seems to be the engine's choice, I'd rather not go this way. If you're going to play ...Qc7 so willingly, why not do it on move 11? Instead why not make use of 11...Nd7 and try out 12...Bf6. After 13.d5, the engine gives white a very modest edge, but this is might be the engine overstating white's space advantage and underestimating black's kingside chances in this King's Indian-ish structure. The key point to remember is that this is not a King's Indian! Black probably needs to regroup carefully and get his offside ...Na5 into play (e.g., something like ...Na5-b7-d8-f7) before going for ...f5. Not supplying many variations here, but it's a closed manoeuvring struggle which should suit many closed-Spanish players.


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Confused_by_Theory God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 649 Location: Europe Joined: 05/13/15 Gender:	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #5 - 08/05/15 at 07:13:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello. I took a brief look at the game. Download game in pgn format Have a nice day.


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vallescure YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 09/20/11	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #4 - 08/03/15 at 07:07:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	The game just ended in a draw : [Event "RCCA 20, sf2 (RUS)"] [Site "ICCF"] [Date "2014.12.20"] [Round "?"] [White "Myakutin, Valery Igorevich"] [Black "LePage, Claude"] [Result ""] [ECO "C96"] [WhiteElo "2381"] [BlackElo "2413"] [PlyCount "153"] [EventDate "2014.??.??"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. h3 d6 9. c3 Na5 10. Bc2 c5 11. d4 Nd7 12. Kh1 Qc7 13. d5 Nb6 14. Nbd2 c4 15. Nf1 Nb7 16. b3 f5 17. exf5 Bxf5 18. Bxf5 Rxf5 19. Ng3 Rff8 20. Ne4 Nc5 21. Nxc5 Qxc5 22. Be3 Qc7 23. Re2 Nd7 24. a4 cxb3 25. Qxb3 Qc4 26. Rb2 Nf6 27. axb5 axb5 28. Rxa8 Rxa8 29. Qxb5 Qxd5 30. c4 Qxb5 31. cxb5 Nd5 32. b6 Rb8 33. b7 Nxe3 34. fxe3 Kf7 35. e4 Ke6 36. Nd2 Bd8 37. Kh2 Kd7 38. Nc4 Kc6 39. Rc2 Bc7 40. Nxe5+ Kxb7 41. Rb2+ Kc8 42. Rxb8+ Kxb8 43. Nf3 d5+ 44. g3 dxe4 45. Ng5 e3 46. Kg2 e2 47. Kf2 e1=R 48. Kxe1 Bxg3+ 49. Ke2 h6 50. Kf3 Be1 51. Ne6 Bc3 52. Nxg7 Bxg7 53. Kg2 Kc7 54. h4 Kc6 55. h5 Kd5 56. Kh1 Bd4 57. Kg2 Be5 58. Kh1 Kc6 59. Kg2 Bd4 60. Kh1 Kc7 61. Kg2 Kb7 62. Kh1 Kc6 63. Kg2 Bg7 64. Kh1 Kd5 65. Kh2 Kd6 66. Kh1 Bf6 67. Kg2 Bd4 68. Kh1 Kd7 69. Kg2 Kd8 70. Kh2 Be3 71. Kh1 Kc8 72. Kg2 Bb6 73. Kh1 Kb7 74. Kg2 Ba5 75. Kh1 Bc7 76. Kg2 Bb8 77. Kg1 Improvements on both sides are welcome


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vallescure YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 09/20/11	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #3 - 02/20/15 at 04:49:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 12 Kh1 Qc7 13 Nbd2 , exd4 is possible , but results are very poor After 13 d5 Nb6 ...f5 is possible , and it's what happens in my game , with as probable outcome a draw by perpetual check So , 12...Qc7 would be a significant improvement , unless you show a line winning for Black


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vallescure YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 09/20/11	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #2 - 02/19/15 at 12:16:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Can you be so kind to show me at least one game where Graf lost with this move after 13 d5 ? Thanks in advance


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RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 868 Joined: 05/17/08	Re: Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? Reply #1 - 02/19/15 at 10:10:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	vallescure wrote on 02/19/15 at 09:15:36: In a Ruy Lopez , Keres variation So , my question is : Why 12...Qc7 has not been played before ? It's not a variation I play, but a usual plan by Black is to unbalance the pawns by playing .. exd4. Alternatively if White prevents this with d5, to hit back with f5. Playing .. Qc7 doesn't fit in with either. Having said that, German GM Graf has played it (and lost) and computer engines find nothing immediately wrong with it.


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vallescure YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 44 Joined: 09/20/11	Ruy Lopez Keres variation , 12 Kh1 !? 02/19/15 at 09:15:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	In a Ruy Lopez , Keres variation 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 O-O 9 h3 Na5 10 Bc2 c5 11 d4 Nd7 , my opponent played the odd move 12 Kh1!? G Flear gives only 12...Bb7 and 12...Rb8 , neither fully convincing My top engines unanimously prefer 12...Qc7 which , although a natural move , seems never have been played between title players I played it , and the sky did not fall on my head : on the contrary , on move 16 , I get a slight edge So , my question is : Why 12...Qc7 has not been played before ?


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