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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians (Read 18660 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #20 - 03/27/15 at 17:09:04
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hmm, from that first .pgn board, the old book thing is 15...Rfe8 16. Bf1 Bf8 = from a game Jan Timman's late FM brother Ton played as Black against the Polish GM Wlodzimierz Schmidt in the '70s.  Timman ended up losing by means of losing the opposition/getting squeezed out in a K+P ending.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #19 - 03/27/15 at 13:36:22
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Stigma wrote on 03/27/15 at 11:06:49:
DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 03/27/15 at 06:14:17:
[...] It is like a Carlsen Fianchetto Torture Strategy against Grünfeld and KID.

You also get a database of 111 model games. The most recent is a KID game, Baramidze-Caruana, Grenke Schach, 09.02.2015.

Interesting! I mat get it too when I tire of risky stuff like the Sämisch, 4 Pawns Attack and Exchange/Russian Grünfelds.  Smiley

But there are lots of different lines in the Fianchetto KID; how deeply is he able to go into that in a DVD format? Presumably some extra sources are needed for the KID, at least to play it above a certain level.


Probably, I almost always use a book source with DVDs. In this case I would use Awrukh's Volume 2, except play 10. Nh4 instead of 10. Re1.

You could use Wojo 3, but the lines are a bit different. 7. Qb3 is for the 3...c6/4...d5 line in that book, but Pert does the Exchange. Although Awrukh does 5. b3 there.

I usually do not get tortured in either line as Black because I spent much time studiyng this line. But it is true that some aggressive Grünfeld players who are not positionally inclined get frustrated in the Fianchetto and collapse under positional pressure instead of trying to find an equalising method and slowly playing. That does happen to me here, except it is with playing White Smiley

Recently I play 3. f3 like Kaufman/Swetushkin so it is that 3. f3 against the Grünfeld and basically you are forced to do Sämisch against KID. I had mixed results, but uusally in the 3. f3 Grünfeld, either 1) You get destroyed off of the board, 2) Your opponent is destroyed off of the board, or 3) Draw after chaos because neither player remembers the theory/knows what is going on.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #18 - 03/27/15 at 11:06:49
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 03/27/15 at 06:14:17:
[...] It is like a Carlsen Fianchetto Torture Strategy against Grünfeld and KID.

You also get a database of 111 model games. The most recent is a KID game, Baramidze-Caruana, Grenke Schach, 09.02.2015.

Interesting! I mat get it too when I tire of risky stuff like the Sämisch, 4 Pawns Attack and Exchange/Russian Grünfelds.  Smiley

But there are lots of different lines in the Fianchetto KID; how deeply is he able to go into that in a DVD format? Presumably some extra sources are needed for the KID, at least to play it above a certain level.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #17 - 03/27/15 at 06:14:17
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Exchange Variation--it is on the first .pgn board in the last post.

I am quite intrigued by these positions. It sure is safe and solid, it seems to be to be based on a general concept of trying to effect positional/strategical torture on your opponent, so I think that this DVD suits positional players (althoough the title kind of implied that anyway). It is like a Carlsen Fianchetto Torture Strategy against Grünfeld and KID.

You also get a database of 111 model games. The most recent is a KID game, Baramidze-Caruana, Grenke Schach, 09.02.2015.
« Last Edit: 03/27/15 at 07:37:59 by DenVerdsligeRejsende »  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #16 - 03/27/15 at 06:00:36
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Cool! What does he recommend against the c6-d5 Grunfeld line?
  
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #15 - 03/27/15 at 05:22:26
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I bought the DVD and a surprise, 10. Nh4 is recommended.

I do not know much else about the DVD, I just started it up. Also my computer is close to kapot so I am not sure how much it can handle  Smiley

Just quick, the lines in the main Grünfeld that I see start with:



  
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #14 - 03/25/15 at 00:23:30
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Imo the critical position for the assessment of 10.Nh4 arises after 10...e5 11.d5 Ne7 12.e4 Bd7 13.Qb3 (or 13.a4 c6 14.Qb3) c6 14.a4 cxd5 15.exd5 Rc8. In that case I'd prefer 16.Rd1 which seems to offer White a minimal edge.
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #13 - 03/24/15 at 08:35:00
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I can take a look sometime. It should be interesting. I tested out 10. Nh4 again in blitz and I had an okay position until I crumbled in the centre again. It should be a decent surprise weapon, probably is just my ineptness that I mess up. Eventually I will break the losing streak in this line Smiley
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #12 - 03/24/15 at 02:12:24
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I threw together and attached some notes really quick, perhaps to spark a discussion if people are interested. Not checked particularly thoroughly - just some games and engine analysis.

  

Grunfeld_Nh4.pgn ( 3 KB | 279 Downloads )
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #11 - 03/24/15 at 01:29:38
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If you want to see some annotations on 10. Nh4, see game Li Chao-Tomczak 2014 on page 303 of Chess Informator 122. On page 304 there is also a game on 10. Ne1, but that looks strange to me.
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #10 - 03/23/15 at 07:15:45
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I tried out 10. Nh4 in a blitz game. I had a fairly decent position until I decided to collapse and my centre and kingside crumbled (I am still without a win in the 3. g3 Grünfeld as White), but it seems to be a positional game. The only important part is the opening phase:



If White can get some sort of game where can play against Black's queenside I suppose that White can be happy. But Black still has quite some counterplay. What I mean about the hidden resources are things like when I did Na4, I thought that I could do Qxc4 but then saw fork ...Nb2. If I try b3, then ...Nc5 threatening ...Bxb3, and if after Rab1, ...Qa6 and I could have had more problems. If I tried the pin with Bh3, then ...Nd4 or ...Nc5 and I might end up in problems. Even so, Black has the d4 square. This is what I mean that in this line White has to be very careful about Black's counterplay, because it is not only in the centre, but on both flanks.

3...c6 is a different sack though, I wonder what Pert recommends here. It is well-known that Black should play ...Ne4 early, not ...e6 and ...Nfd7 although strong GMs continue to do this, and I do not know why. That just looks += to me.

In mine eyes, these are the two critical Grünfeld lines:



and

  
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Stigma
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #9 - 03/22/15 at 15:38:14
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Thanks for the tip. I have Vigorito's Chess Developments book, but had forgotten it covers the Fianchetto! Looks very useful. No mention of 10.Nh4 though!

Meanwhile I just rediscovered that Wojo's Weapons III forgot to cover this (probably strongest) move order where Black delays 0-0 and fights in the centre first. But the authors published an analysis with an interesting sac of the d4 pawn right here, with a pgn link: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1321660837/all
« Last Edit: 03/22/15 at 17:00:18 by Stigma »  

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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #8 - 03/22/15 at 07:29:26
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I have Lemos book, and he goes for 6. e4 with d5, Ne2, andsoforth, like how Lenderman-Robson. I do not like this line, because I feel that the centre is very shaky for White, and the position feels a bit too holey for my liking.

If you see the YouTube introduction by Nick Pert, he definitely has something on the line, what it is I am not sure. But he has 9...Re8 on the board:

http://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/pert_solid_and_safe_against_indians_play_t...

I have Grandmaster Brick 2: 1. d4 by Awrukh, and he goes for 9...Re8 10. Re1 a5 11. Qe2. I really get destroyed in this line as White, and based on the games that I see in the database, it looks like White has to be the one to be careful not to slip into a bad position nowadays. Black has quite a lot of counterplay, and it just keeps coming. Black even has a few lines to choose from.

If you have Delchew/Agrest book on the Grünfeld, you can see some of Black's counterplay. It was written in 2011, but it seems that White's chances look even worse now than before, at least in mine eyes.

If you have the Wigorito book Chess Developments on Grünfeld, he examines the Fianchetto with knight takes on d5 in depth. The last game of that chapter is Awrukh-Nawara 2012, where Awrukh actually deviates from 11. Qe2 and plays 11. Qc2, but still lost because Black got a kingside attack.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #7 - 03/22/15 at 01:55:23
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En passant, has anyone looked at the fairly recent Everyman book by Lemos on Fianchetto lines against the KID and Grünfeld? I've wondered about getting it, since my current lines aginst the KID and Grünfeld are a bit on the sharp side.

Is that book geared to lower-rated players, perhaps? Could it suffice as a solid backup repertoire for a ~2200 player?

From the excerpt it looks like Lemors favors Ne2 lines, so might not go well with the Nh4 line TonyRo showed - that caught my interest. So maybe Wojo's Weapons (or that brick by Avrukh) is the ticket.
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Solid and Safe Against the Wild Indians
Reply #6 - 03/21/15 at 05:17:11
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I think that 6. e4 is basically fine for Black theoretically. It is true that White has that passed d-pawn, but Black has those knights on a6 and c6 in the main line, and there are så many holes in White's position like on b3, c2, d3, d4, that this "holey" position just gives Black too many squares for her/his pieces.

With 5. Qa4, I thought that it was established that 5...Nfd7 is the answer to equalise, rather than using the queen knight?

I also saw the YouTube introduction, and that symmetrical position against ...c5 looks drawish, but in that open position, White always has that extra tempo, like he says in the video. Whether White can end up losing, I would say low, perhaps low that Black with best plays loses either, but still, no pieces have been traded.

I think that this DVD might suit me from what I see. But again, 9...Re8 is without doubts, the most critical of the entire Grünfeld Fianchetto line nowadays.
  
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