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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Transpositions leading to the French Exchange? (Read 13393 times)
tipau
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #28 - 04/26/15 at 00:28:35
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HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/25/15 at 23:04:49:
I see the Burn variation doesn't get much coverage, either. Is there a reason why this won't be covered in Volume 3?


As TonyRo wrote below, the books by Berg are showing a repertoire and so will (usually) only cover one main Black option. In this case the line covered is the Winawer (3.Nc3 Bb4), which is why the Burn variation and any other lines after 3...Nf6, 3...dxe4 or other moves won't be found.
  

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HagenWatch1
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #27 - 04/25/15 at 23:04:49
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I see the Burn variation doesn't get much coverage, either. Is there a reason why this won't be covered in Volume 3? Or maybe I'm wrong and it will be covered. I don't know.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #26 - 04/25/15 at 15:55:55
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I know that Lakdawala didn't cover 4. Bg5 Be7.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #25 - 04/25/15 at 15:55:22
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/15 at 15:20:41:
GM (sic) Watson doesn't cover 4. Bg5 Be7 (which is what I think of as the Classical) in his book, but naturally has been known to address it at Chess Publishing.


Certainly 3...Nf6 is already usually called the Classical. Maybe 4.Bg5 Be7 is also (or originally) the Classical, but this is bound to create confusion. Is it the "Classical Classical"? The "über-Classical?" The "Classical proper"?

We need a comittee for the logical naming of chess openings!
  

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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #24 - 04/25/15 at 15:40:29
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tipau wrote on 04/25/15 at 15:08:02:
HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/25/15 at 11:59:23:
You must mean Playing the French by Jacob Aagaard and Nikolaos Ntirlis...*not* Play the French by GM John Watson.


Actually both Watson (who's an IM) and Aagaard & Nikos cover the Classical variation.



Eingorn (Rock Solid Chess Opening Repertoire) and Lakdawala (in the Classical French MBM) also both cover 3...Nf6 variations.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #23 - 04/25/15 at 15:20:41
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GM (sic) Watson doesn't cover 4. Bg5 Be7 (which is what I think of as the Classical) in his book, but naturally has been known to address it at Chess Publishing.  (It is perhaps a little-known fact that there are sources for opening information other than repertoire books.)
  
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tipau
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #22 - 04/25/15 at 15:08:02
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HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/25/15 at 11:59:23:
You must mean Playing the French by Jacob Aagaard and Nikolaos Ntirlis...*not* Play the French by GM John Watson.


Actually both Watson (who's an IM) and Aagaard & Nikos cover the Classical variation.
  

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HagenWatch1
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #21 - 04/25/15 at 11:59:23
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TonyRo wrote on 04/25/15 at 04:22:31:
HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/25/15 at 03:25:38:
I can only assume this means the Classical *will* get coverage in a future volume by someone else commissioned to study that variation.

I could be wrong on this, but wasn't the Classical variation Nikos' choice in Play the French? The Rubenstein is quite a bit less popular nowadays, but as kylemeister said, Langrock is a very recent source if you're interested in that sort of thing...


You must mean Playing the French by Jacob Aagaard and Nikolaos Ntirlis...*not* Play the French by GM John Watson. As for the Rubinstein variation...I'll study the White side from Negi's book and do analysis with my copy of Aquarium 2015.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #20 - 04/25/15 at 04:22:31
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HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/25/15 at 03:25:38:
I can only assume this means the Classical *will* get coverage in a future volume by someone else commissioned to study that variation.

I could be wrong on this, but wasn't the Classical variation Nikos' choice in Play the French? The Rubenstein is quite a bit less popular nowadays, but as kylemeister said, Langrock is a very recent source if you're interested in that sort of thing...
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #19 - 04/25/15 at 03:50:06
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I believe the Rubinstein isn't to IM Watson's taste, but IM Hannes Langrock recently wrote a repertoire book on it.
  
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HagenWatch1
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #18 - 04/25/15 at 03:25:38
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TonyRo wrote on 04/25/15 at 02:57:22:
Just as an FYI (since it's come up more than once) - "repertoire" in chess book terminology generally means that the author is selecting one variation out of many options, but for all tries for the opponent. So what you end up getting is something that presents a complete "repertoire" for the color concerned, but is not comprehensive with regards to all of the options available to that color. Berg chose the Winawer, so you will not see the Rubenstein or the Classical covered. Similarly, in Schandorff's Caro-Kann book, he chose 3...Bf5 against the Advance instead of 3...c5, etc.

Berg's books looks impressive!  Grin



I can only assume this means the Classical *will* get coverage in a future volume by someone else commissioned to study that variation. As for the Rubinstein variation...ironically, it's the Negi book that covers it...albeit from the White side. I can only hope we'll see a Rubinstein volume on the French someday as well. Maybe GM John Watson will get the honors.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #17 - 04/25/15 at 02:57:22
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Just as an FYI (since it's come up more than once) - "repertoire" in chess book terminology generally means that the author is selecting one variation out of many options, but for all tries for the opponent. So what you end up getting is something that presents a complete "repertoire" for the color concerned, but is not comprehensive with regards to all of the options available to that color. Berg chose the Winawer, so you will not see the Rubenstein or the Classical covered. Similarly, in Schandorff's Caro-Kann book, he chose 3...Bf5 against the Advance instead of 3...c5, etc.

Berg's books looks impressive!  Grin
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #16 - 04/25/15 at 00:35:59
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Thanks for the link and the game. Can't wait for this to be in my hands.  I'm wondering why the Rubinstein and the Classical aren't covered?
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #15 - 04/24/15 at 23:52:14
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http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/products/1/219/grandmaster_repertoire_16_-_the_fre...


Incidentally, here's an Exchange game of Berg's (black against Kezli Ong, rated in the 2300s, in the 2004-5 Rilton Cup) which stuck in my memory, perhaps for the way the sharp stuff led to an equalish endgame:


  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #14 - 04/24/15 at 23:33:20
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Ooohhh...that's great news. 34 pages! My mouth is salivating at the chance to dig into that section right away. Heh...my opponents won't be able to force a draw from me. Can't wait to see what analysis this one comes up with. The French 4th Edition is shying away from the Bg4 line and recommends the Nc6 reply to unbalance the position. This will be interesting to see. BTW...I went to their webpage to see the PDF extracts but couldn't find that one. Where did you get it?
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #13 - 04/24/15 at 23:26:04
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The Exchange is in the third volume (and covers about 34 pages), according to the .pdf excerpt.
  
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HagenWatch1
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #12 - 04/24/15 at 22:38:13
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Does the Berg book series on the French in Grandmaster Repertoire talk about the Exchange Variation? I've got the first two volumes but I can't get my hands on the third because it hasn't been officially released yet in the States.

Edit: Just checked Barnes and Noble and found out its being released officially on May 28th and it will NOT cover the French Exchange variation. This raises an interesting question...would there be enough theoretical information out there to publish a separate volume dedicated to the French Exchange in the Grandmaster Repertoire series?
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #11 - 04/24/15 at 07:11:21
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ReneDescartes wrote on 04/24/15 at 00:50:45:
What's "wasteland" chess--chess played with hollow men?


I mean using what initiative you have, not to improve your position as a winning attempt, but to remove all the possibilities for your opponent to do so.

This game for example



Taking on d5 at move 15 and exchanging Queens at move 28 leads to a very sterile position.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #10 - 04/24/15 at 00:50:45
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MartinC wrote on 04/09/15 at 18:30:37:
Its a bit like the way Gallagher got very rude indeed about the Exchange KID in most things he's written - white might not be able to get much but they can do much sillier things than this before standing worse!


I agree, I think Gallagher is off the wall there. What I mostly get from Gallagher is that he really, really doesn't like it when his opponents play the Exchange. That reminds me of Anand complaining about Carlsen being good at getting "the driest dust," or Kasparov ruing how Kramnik maneuvered him into Berlin endgames. Frankly, it makes me, as someone very comfortable in endgames, want to play it more.

I guess I see the Exchange KID as a unique endgame variation in an opening where overall it's a lot harder for White to obtain a quiet game than in the French (a quiet game, not playing unilaterally for a loss--I mean a draw). There are quiet equal variations of that White can go for even in the Winawer, so the Exchange French doesn't stand out as much for such purposes. The Monte Carlo Exchange is used for a different purpose altogether, namely to get an open IQP position as White, i.e. one completely valid, but markedly inferior to IQP positions in the Queen's Gambit or Nimzo/QID. If you're good at playing IQP postitions as White, go for it.



RdC wrote on 04/09/15 at 20:37:46:
HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/09/15 at 15:27:41:
I was under the impression the French Exchange is hard to prove a draw if you're playing White. Because if that was true then everyone can simply go for the Exchange variation to put the French Defense to pasture.


I have found the Exchange variation with c4 a suitable weapon for playing for a win against players of a similar circa 2000 to 2100 standard. It can work below that rating as technique is not as good and above that in search of a draw if you are prepared to play "wasteland" chess.


What's "wasteland" chess--chess played with hollow men?
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #9 - 04/09/15 at 20:37:46
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HagenWatch1 wrote on 04/09/15 at 15:27:41:
I was under the impression the French Exchange is hard to prove a draw if you're playing White. Because if that was true then everyone can simply go for the Exchange variation to put the French Defense to pasture.


I have found the Exchange variation with c4 a suitable weapon for playing for a win against players of a similar circa 2000 to 2100 standard. It can work below that rating as technique is not as good and above that in search of a draw if you are prepared to play "wasteland" chess. There is however one line or method of play where Black is able to liquidate all four of the c and d pawns, after which there's little left for either player.

Here's a win in under 20 moves


  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #8 - 04/09/15 at 18:30:37
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Just look at Guverich - Short (a while back now Smiley) for what to do to someone playing for a draw with white this way.....

Its a bit like the way Gallagher got very rude indeed about the Exchange KID in most things he's written - white might not be able to get much but they can do much sillier things than this before standing worse!
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #7 - 04/09/15 at 15:27:41
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RdC wrote on 04/09/15 at 14:41:22:
Lanark wrote on 04/09/15 at 09:14:47:
There is also a transposition from the English,


There's more than you might think. Being able to extract something as White from typical French Exchange middle games, particularly those where c4 has been played can have its utility with the possible transpositions from other openings. Writers on the French usually denigrate the Exchange. I think that they are over pessimistic on White's ability to retain an initiative. That's not to say that Black cannot steer to a draw if that's his intention.


Has the updated version of Moskolenko's "Flexible French" been released yet? Because I loved the original edition (I lost mine a while back) but I'm glad to hear an updated version is coming out. I can't wait to see if he offers new ideas in the French Exchange.

What worries me is that your assessment may be correct and that White does have a nagging initiative when choosing this variation. I was particularly irked when I read a comment describing Katerina Nemcova's victory against (I can't recall who) as White in the current US Women's Chess championship going on in St Louis when she chose to enter the French Exchange variation with the apparent intention to "avoid" her opponent's possible preparation in the French Defense. This comment concerns me because it suggests this is the way to defeat booked up opponents in the French. I was under the impression the French Exchange is hard to prove a draw if you're playing White. Because if that was true then everyone can simply go for the Exchange variation to put the French Defense to pasture.

What's really concerning to see in the current US Chess championship though is the news that two of the exponents of the French Defense suffered bad defeats using this opening. Looks like John Watson will have to do some post mortem analysis and explain what went wrong.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #6 - 04/09/15 at 14:41:22
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Lanark wrote on 04/09/15 at 09:14:47:
There is also a transposition from the English,


There's more than you might think. Being able to extract something as White from typical French Exchange middle games, particularly those where c4 has been played can have its utility with the possible transpositions from other openings. Writers on the French usually denigrate the Exchange. I think that they are over pessimistic on White's ability to retain an initiative. That's not to say that Black cannot steer to a draw if that's his intention.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #5 - 04/09/15 at 09:14:47
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There is also a transposition from the English, often played by GM Normunds Miezis:
1.c4 e6 2.e4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.d4
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #4 - 04/09/15 at 08:47:23
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TN wrote on 04/09/15 at 01:26:52:
I can't think of any other particularly relevant ones.


Icelandic Gambit Declined

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. c4 e6 4. d4 exd5 same as
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. c4 Nf6

The verdict offered by works of theory as to the best moves and plans can vary according to the move order reaching the same position.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #3 - 04/09/15 at 01:26:52
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The most obvious examples are 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 e5 4.Bxc4 exd4 5.exd4 (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 exd5 4.c4 dxc4?! 5.Bxc4) and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5 d6 4.Nf3 Nxe4 5.d3 Nf6 6.d4 d5. I can't think of any other particularly relevant ones.

  

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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #2 - 04/09/15 at 01:06:47
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Thanks for the information about this. The news about the Slav took me by surprise. I will need to investigate this. I hope the Grandmaster Repertoire book by GM Boris Avrukh on the Slav mentions this fact. If it does I need to study that line as well.
  
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Re: Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
Reply #1 - 04/08/15 at 23:44:38
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The first couple of things I think of are:  1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. ed ed 4. Nf3 Nf6 can also be reached via the Petroff, and 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. ed ed 4. c4 Nf6 5. Nc3 c6 can also be reached via the Winawer Counter-Gambit in the Slav.
  
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Transpositions leading to the French Exchange?
04/08/15 at 23:08:59
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Are there any openings that transpose to the French Exchange that I should be aware of in case I get into that situation?
  
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