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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Top players who don't even know the laws of chess (Read 27806 times)
MarkG
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #22 - 04/11/15 at 03:15:43
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What I have read suggests this is a habitual behavior of So's. He is a top 10 player who played at Wijk aan Zee against Carlsen, Caruana, Giri et al. Apparently, it wasn't a problem for them but it is for the delicate flowers who inhabit the US Championship.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #21 - 04/11/15 at 01:22:16
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Personally, and just looking at the rules, I don't find it all that obvious that what So was doing is against the rules. Those speak of it not being allowed to 'use' notes - to me this seems to be directed to bringing pre-made notes to the board. If you aren't allowed to mke notes during the game the rules could have said so more directly. But I guess probably arbiters have their own understanding of what the rules are supposed to mean.

I'd like to know more about exactly what he was warned about and what he was doing.

This sort of self-help note is obviously a bit naff, but should it really be illegal? I'm not sure I see why. Doesn't affect whether it is or not, of course.
  
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #20 - 04/11/15 at 01:10:22
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Usually people take notes to remind them of thoughts they've had so they don't have to remember them, it makes more sense if he is taking notes on what's going on in the game. If you evaluate or think of something during the game, it seems plausible that noting it would prove advantageous later. 

The occasional sports manager writes notes down on the game. 
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2537165/REVEALED-What-Mourinho...

Alex Ferguson wasn't a fan of it though.

Quote:
"I don't believe in taking notes. I see other coaches do it, but I don't want to miss any part of the game.

"And I cannot imagine going into the dressing room, looking at my notes, and saying 'Oh in the 30th minute, that pass you took'. I don't think it's going to impress the players."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/9754827/Manche...
  

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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #19 - 04/11/15 at 00:47:19
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dfan wrote on 04/11/15 at 00:44:22:
DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 04/11/15 at 00:41:24:
Anyway, what kind of scribing down notes was it? Was it like opening variations or words like during a university lecture?

No one has said what it was during this particular game, but according to chess.com, two of the notes that he had written down during previous games were "Use your time you have a lot of it," and "Sit down for the entire game. Never get up."

Edit: I spoke too soon. chess.com did mention a couple of today's notes: "Double Check and triple check" and "use your time."


I must say, with all due respect, that scribing something that like for a Top 10 is completely silly. Surely if you can remember hundreds of opening variations, you can tell yourself silently to do those things instead of risking forfeit and big polemics?
  
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dfan
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #18 - 04/11/15 at 00:44:22
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DenVerdsligeRejsende wrote on 04/11/15 at 00:41:24:
Anyway, what kind of scribing down notes was it? Was it like opening variations or words like during a university lecture?

No one has said what it was during this particular game, but according to chess.com, two of the notes that he had written down during previous games were "Use your time you have a lot of it," and "Sit down for the entire game. Never get up."

Edit: I spoke too soon. chess.com did mention a couple of today's notes: "Double Check and triple check" and "use your time."
  
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DenVerdsligeRejsende
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #17 - 04/11/15 at 00:41:24
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I am quite surprised that he kept taking notes, and also, why he needs to even do so. Surely memorising your lines you see them in your head trying to remember them, not visualising the notation?

Anyway, what kind of scribing down notes was it? Was it like opening variations or words like during a university lecture?

But at least Akobian knew the rules. Perhaps if both players did not know the rules, no one would say anything, unless another player noticed. It may be the case that if he thoght it was suspicious but did not know precisely, he would not have notified.

But if he scribes down moves, would not someone find ud when he turns in the scoresheet? Also they have a camera on the entire playing hall during the transmission.

Is scribing moves allowed in USCF? They seem to have weird regulations in their tournaments that differ from tournaments outside of their country, like no increment, bringing your own sets and clocks, touch move is allowed with both hands, and so wider.
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #16 - 04/11/15 at 00:29:08
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I have actually experimented with self-instructions a bit like these, to remind myself to look at aspects of the game I tend not to think enough about. "Always look for the downsides of a candidate move" or "Don't become too passive!", for example.

But of course I took for granted that I could only write or look at such instructions before the game. During it I would just have to rely on my brain to remember them... So apparently though otherwise.
  

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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #15 - 04/11/15 at 00:19:41
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The Chess.com article makes it pretty clear that So has been warned about this issue by his university coaches and team mates many times over the last couple of years.
This clearly indicates he was perfectly aware he was breaking the rules. He simply thought he could get away with it.

Kudos to the referee for doing what had to be done.

Personally I felt disturbed when a certain opponent of mine wrote all kinds of hyroglyphs on the front and back of his score sheet. How can I know whether he writes some unimportant nonsense or really cheating stuff like "calculate the bishop sac after castles"? His writing things down inevitably pulled me out of my own thoughts for a short period of time.

So I can absolutely understand a player who calls the arbiter if his opponent takes notes.
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #14 - 04/11/15 at 00:05:36
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FIDE doesn't define "the rules of chess". Those rules and regulations are about tournament play. Otherwise correspondance play, online play and so on wouldn't be chess according to you. 
   
You should say "the FIDE rules of tournament chess", that would be more correct.... though it might still be argued that a person's behaviour is part of extended requirements (such as registering to enter the tournament) and not the actual rules of the game. 
  

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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #13 - 04/11/15 at 00:04:26
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More details on what he was writing here:

http://www.chess.com/news/breaking-wesley-so-forfeited-in-round-9-9186

Self-instructions like "Use your time", "Double check and triple check", "Sit down for the entire game", etc. Not analysis of course, but still very likely illegal.
  

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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #12 - 04/10/15 at 23:04:06
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RoleyPoley wrote on 04/10/15 at 22:23:42:
think it was Lawrence Trent on Twitter who said that a significant number of titled players do the same thing as So did...which would partially explain why so many players find this incredulous.

Trent saw a picture of So's actual scoresheet (not the sheet he was writing notes on) and misinterpreted that to mean that So was forfeited for writing down clock times, which is the thing that he pointed out that lots of GMs do. "Absolutely absurd", he opined on Twitter, which of course it would have been if it were true.

Sometimes the lightning speed of present-day social media can have a downside.
  
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dfan
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #11 - 04/10/15 at 22:45:26
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Stigma wrote on 04/10/15 at 22:16:34:
Well, I'm European and I say the rules are the rules until you change them, while American IM Mark Ginsburg was quite vocal against the arbiter's decision to forfeit over on the chess24 chat... but I suppose two N's is not enough to change your statistics  Smiley

Oh, it probably is! No doubt it was a totally insufficient amount of data to generalize from.

Quote:
One theory: He may have interpreted the warning as "You're not allowed to take notes on your scoresheet during games", and thought he had fixed that by using a separate sheet. But still, knowing the rules is up to the players in the first place.

This was my impression as well.
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #10 - 04/10/15 at 22:23:42
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were his previous warnings for exactly the same offence? i.e was he using a separate paper in those occasions too? or making the same kind of notes? if not, its possible that he had misunderstood what he wasnt allowed to do.

If he has been doing it his whole career, it would seem odd that he is only now being picked up on it....

I think it was Lawrence Trent on Twitter who said that a significant number of titled players do the same thing as So did...which would partially explain why so many players find this incredulous.
  

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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #9 - 04/10/15 at 22:16:34
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dfan wrote on 04/10/15 at 22:04:46:
I also note that in my limited sampling of Twitter, the American viewpoint seems to generally be "It's against the rules, he was warned multiple times and told that the next violation would result in a forfeit, what else can you do but forfeit him?" while the European viewpoint is generally "You have to let them decide the game on the board." I'm American, so...


Well, I'm European and I say the rules are the rules until you change them, while American IM Mark Ginsburg was quite vocal against the arbiter's decision to forfeit over on the chess24 chat... but I suppose two N's is not enough to change your statistics  Smiley

Girkassa wrote on 04/10/15 at 22:16:03:
A very strange case indeed. Firstly, how could So not know about this rule, and secondly, why did he not stop taking notes when he had been warned?  Undecided

One theory: He may have interpreted the warning as "You're not allowed to take notes on your scoresheet during games", and thought he had fixed that by using a separate sheet. But still, knowing the rules is up to the players in the first place.
  

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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #8 - 04/10/15 at 22:16:03
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Well, I am European, and I think that when he had been warned several times in advance, it was a natural decision to forfeit the game. My first reaction was that I thought it sounded harsh, but that was before I heard that he had been warned.

A very strange case indeed. Firstly, how could So not know about this rule, and secondly, why did he not stop taking notes when he had been warned?  Undecided
  
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