Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Top players who don't even know the laws of chess (Read 28073 times)
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #37 - 04/12/15 at 08:42:30
Post Tools
But if the notes are made while playing it is pretty hard to say if it only making or also using the notes unless the arbiter watches the entire game. And while making the notes, you could still theoretically be using them I'd say. At least subconsciously.

Anyhow, no matter what and how silly the notes are, my opinion is that So wrote the notes in order to play better and the rules are meant to prohibit that. Therefore, I can't really understand why it is so upsetting with a forfeit after So was warned twice this tourney and apparently also in earlier tournaments.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Straggler
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 373
Joined: 08/09/09
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #36 - 04/12/15 at 06:53:16
Post Tools
As a fellow lawyer I agree with IM Cox that the prohibition on using notes cannot properly be construed as prohibiting the making of notes. But, if the notes made continue to be visible to the player throughout the game, it is impossible to be sure that the player is not "using" them by looking at them. I don't think it would be illegal to make notes on a stack of cards, each of which is immediately turned face down; and I'm not convinced that it should be.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
jon
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Location: Keaau, Hawaii
Joined: 12/30/07
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #35 - 04/12/15 at 05:16:26
Post Tools
    I am a US citizen, USCF member, and a tournament player. I have to side with the arbiter in this case. I have been watching a fair amount of this tournament, and enjoying it very much. I am a lower level player and not up on FIDE rules. But, this isn't some weekend swiss, or club blitz match. We are deciding who is the male and female US Champion here. Are we going to be governed by a set of rules or not? Are we going to enforce the rules, or are we going to let some of the top echelon elite players slide through?  Mr. So was warned at least twice at this tournament. He was told he would forfeit if he did it again. He did it again. He forfeited. At his level, and at such an important competition, he should have listened to the arbiter and fixed the problem.

  

Jon in Keaau, Hawaii
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4718
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #34 - 04/11/15 at 17:27:38
Post Tools
Well, isn't it pretty universally understood that you can't write something like (to use an example given earlier) "calculate the bishop sac after castles," or indeed write down variations, during the game?  I don't see why the reference to using notes would be taken to mean only notes prepared beforehand.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Crapov
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 52
Joined: 12/16/07
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #33 - 04/11/15 at 17:18:13
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 04/11/15 at 01:22:16:
Personally, and just looking at the rules, I don't find it all that obvious that what So was doing is against the rules. Those speak of it not being allowed to 'use' notes - to me this seems to be directed to bringing pre-made notes to the board. If you aren't allowed to make notes during the game the rules could have said so more directly. But I guess probably arbiters have their own understanding of what the rules are supposed to mean.

I'd like to know more about exactly what he was warned about and what he was doing.

This sort of self-help note is obviously a bit naff, but should it really be illegal? I'm not sure I see why. Doesn't affect whether it is or not, of course.


Exactly my thoughts as well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4718
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #32 - 04/11/15 at 16:11:57
Post Tools
barnaby wrote on 04/11/15 at 15:02:11:
Rules of the game should be followed in spirit and not by letter of law.  No one person should have power to forfeit a player over a subjective ruling.


That seems to raise such questions as:  if an IA -- in this case apparently after consulting with at least one other IA -- shouldn't have the power to impose a forfeit, should such power be removed from the laws of chess?  Should such cases be referred to a standing panel of IAs, immediately reachable by phone or the like, who would then decide by majority vote?  Or what?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #31 - 04/11/15 at 15:44:38
Post Tools
However,  the rules specifically mentions scores sheet. In that case the literal meaning in this case is a bit different from what happened since So wrote the notes on a separate paper. I still think it is clear that So wrote down something to help him play better, which is against the spirit of the law, how "insignificant" it might seem.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #30 - 04/11/15 at 15:39:35
Post Tools
I have interpreted the rule as not writing anything except moves, clock times etc. Despite this, I sometimes make a small dot in front of a critical move in order to remember to look at it after the game. Writing something like So wrote down is to me against the spirit of the law. It is supposed to help you during the game. If you would allow notes like that why can't you allow writing down help in long variation lines like "don't forget to check the sack x after move y etc?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby
Senior Member
****
Offline


The night is dark and
full of terrors.

Posts: 345
Joined: 01/09/12
Gender: Female
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #29 - 04/11/15 at 15:02:11
Post Tools
Rules of the game should be followed in spirit and not by letter of law.  No one person should have power to forfeit a player over a subjective ruling.

The whole thing is a real bummer for players and fans.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dfan
God Member
*****
Offline


"When you see a bad move,
look for a better one"

Posts: 749
Location: Boston
Joined: 10/04/05
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #28 - 04/11/15 at 14:12:51
Post Tools
Lots of comments by GMs and arbiters on Emil Sutovsky's Facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/emil.sutovsky/posts/10152999724869681?_rdr
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2909
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #27 - 04/11/15 at 13:58:34
Post Tools
Strange. Forfeit well deserved - this kind of behaviour is distracting and disrespectful to the opponent, and of course illegal.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LostTactic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 336
Joined: 02/19/11
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #26 - 04/11/15 at 12:55:53
Post Tools
I think it's quite distasteful that they would publicise his family problems like this. It's a private matter for So and his family, the persons writing about it for gossip should be ashamed of themselves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GabrielGale
Senior Member
****
Offline


Who was Thursday?

Posts: 471
Location: Sydney
Joined: 02/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #25 - 04/11/15 at 12:30:46
Post Tools
It gets worse as Dennis Monokrousos links a local newspaper report of family troubles which has caused stress and distraction for/to Wesley So. Unfortunately, Paul Truong is also linked to the story as being involved as there are quite a number rumours about his unethical behaviour at USCF. It is pity that Wesley suffered the dispute with Philipines Chess last year and now this family dispute.
Perhaps now we can appreciate how important a supportive family is, and without knowing the families but reading from afar, the examples of Carlsens and Caruanas shine out.

see http://www.startribune.com/local/299426421.html
edit: this is also reports at Chess24: https://chess24.com/en/read/news/us-champs-r9-so-forfeited-amid-family-turmoil which linked this: https://chessdailynews.com/exclusive-interview-with-wesley-sos-mother-by-chessdo... and this may explain the mother's response:
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/297439341.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#conti...
This is becoming an unwanted soap opera.
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 986
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #24 - 04/11/15 at 09:57:32
Post Tools
Too much bureaucracy for my taste. Can't they talk to each other directly?
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LostTactic
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 336
Joined: 02/19/11
Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #23 - 04/11/15 at 08:32:40
Post Tools
IMJohnCox wrote on 04/11/15 at 01:22:16:
This sort of self-help note is obviously a bit naff, but should it really be illegal? I'm not sure I see why. Doesn't affect whether it is or not, of course.


I think the main problem is it would distract the opponent by making them uneasy about what you were writing. I personally would find it disconcerting if my opponent was making notes during the game. You could end up in a ridiculous situation where you felt the need to call the arbiter over every time your opponent made a new note just to make sure they're not cheating. I think it would be far too much hassle and I suspect there would be a dramatic increase in disputes and accusations of cheating at all levels if this became the norm.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo