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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Top players who don't even know the laws of chess (Read 28576 times)
Stigma
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #67 - 04/14/15 at 13:00:05
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TalJechin wrote on 04/14/15 at 06:17:33:
Though the passage I quoted doesn't explicitly allow for not keeping the score. While there are several instances that demand two scoresheets be kept:

Quote:
8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily [sic] as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.


Quote:
Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet.


Quote:
8.7 At the conclusion of the game both players shall sign both scoresheets


The rules certainly could have been clearer, but to my mind the phrase "If a player is unable to keep score [...]" must imply that you can be a player (one of the two players in a game) even if you're unable to keep score. And the recent addition that I mentioned acknowledges that there can be circumstances other than a disability that make a player unable to keep score.

Besides, as longs as the rules don't clearly say that a player who is unable to keep score (and doesn't bring an assistant to do it for him) shall be forfeited or not allowed to take part in the tournament, etc., many arbiters will think it an overreaction to ban someone from playing for this reason. We want to act in the best interest of the game and allow for a diversity of people to take part, after all.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #66 - 04/14/15 at 12:38:02
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@Scarblac:

That sound like a perfect case for claiming a draw when your time starts running out, on the pretext that the opponent can not win the game in a normal way or isn't trying to win the game in a normal way (on the board, not on the clock being the only sensible reading of "normal way" here).

That's easier said than done in the heat of battle. While I have used this rule to claim a draw a couple of times, I also once suffered a painful loss against a GM, where at the end I had a queen against one easily stopped pawn that I just didn't manage to capture before my flag fell. Obviously I should have claimed a draw at some point, but I only thought about winning...

I've heard some people argue that you can only claim a draw this way when the position is drawn and not when you're actually winning on the board, but I don't see any warrant for that view in the rules.
  

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Scarblac
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #65 - 04/14/15 at 12:02:04
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Or in games with increment, also give him a smaller increment.

I once played a blind player in an international tournament. We had no language in common, so the arbiter gave me a paper with the international code for announcing moves (e.g. Re1 = Turm Eva eins). The opponent didn't have to write down moves as he simply recorded all announcements, I did.

We reached a completely drawn endgame (R+2p v R+2p, pawns on the same files), which he proceeded to drag on for another forty moves until my flag fell (no increments, final period). The constant procedure of announcing moves slowed me down a lot and made me very nervous, while it was of course normal for him.

That left a bad taste in my mouth. It is of course wonderful that blind players can play in normal chess tournaments, obviously sighted players are at an advantage because they can see the board, and dragging on a game to win on time happens between sighted players too of course, but it still felt very unfair.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #64 - 04/14/15 at 11:30:08
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brabo wrote on 04/14/15 at 07:35:21:
Last but not least, you are forced to play a game deviating from standard practice in which you have no experience contrary to your opponent. Likely your opponent knows very well how to optimize the time consumption.


Yes, good point, it certainly appears to be the case here, although I didn't know it before the game - maybe the arbiter did, though.

brabo wrote on 04/14/15 at 07:35:21:
So my conclusion is that 15 minutes sounds a rather poor compensation. Probably 30 minutes is more reasonable.


Yes, after my experience I would agree with this, 15 minutes taken from his clock, as in the game, but also ten-fifteen minutes added to mine.
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #63 - 04/14/15 at 07:35:21
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/13/15 at 19:16:28:
Is 15 minutes sufficient compensation?

Today many (most) tournaments use increments of 30 seconds with the obligation to record the moves at any moment. 30 seconds are used in the assumption that this is enough to avoid big blunders and still have a complete scoresheet. If we assume 10 of the 30 seconds is lost to the recording then 15 minutes corresponds to 90 moves of 10 seconds which should cover more than 99% of the games.

Now I personally see 3 defects in this logic.
1) While 10 seconds are sufficient for many people to record the moves and refocus , I can imagine that when you have to play a long string of moves purely on increment and you aren't that young anymore that 10 seconds aren't sufficient at all.
2) Today many people at some point of their games play purely on increments. This means the 15 minutes bonus are consumed when starting to play purely on increments. I expect the 15 minutes bonus won't make much difference at which move somebody will play purely on increments. The advantage of having 15 minutes bonus for the moves played without pressure of increments, likely doesn't compensate the moves played purely on increments but with the disadvantage of recording.
3) Last but not least, you are forced to play a game deviating from standard practice in which you have no experience contrary to your opponent. Likely your opponent knows very well how to optimize the timeconsumption.

So my conclusion is that 15 minutes sounds a rather poor compensation. Probably 30 minutes is more reasonable.

Interesting case of how inventive people sometimes can be to win games using the boundaries of the rules. Next people are surprised that again new stupid rules are added.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #62 - 04/14/15 at 06:17:33
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Though the passage I quoted doesn't explicitly allow for not keeping the score. While there are several instances that demand two scoresheets be kept:

Quote:
8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily [sic] as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition.


Quote:
Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet.


Quote:
8.7 At the conclusion of the game both players shall sign both scoresheets
  
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Stigma
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #61 - 04/13/15 at 22:33:28
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I must admit I thought deducting some time (using the arbiter's best judgement) from the clock of a player who is unable to keep score was just common practice, widely used for example in cases with religiously observant people who feel they're not allowed to write on the sabbath, or with children who haven't yet learned chess notation.

The section quoted by TalJechin from 8.1.e in the FIDE laws seems to support this:

Quote:
If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

Note that a) the player is assumed to be unable to keep score, and b) an assistant may be provided, not should be provided. The rules here appear to acknowledge the possibility of the (probably not infrequent) situation where no assistant is on hand and the result is that only one player is recording the moves.

If the arbiter accepts that a player is unable to record the moves in the first place, it's only fair that s/he gets a 15-minute deduction, or whatever seems appropriate to the time control.

Actually, in the newest revision to the FIDE laws, 8.1.e continues
Quote:
This adjustment of the clock shall not apply to the clock of a player with a disability.

So a more assertive (or obnoxious, depending on perspective) opponent could have claimed to be effectively disabled without his glasses and demanded no time deduction whatsoever!
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #60 - 04/13/15 at 21:54:10
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Keano wrote on 04/13/15 at 21:06:41:
sounds like you were conned there Tony.


Yes, I'm not too happy about it, especially after analysing the position a bit.
Before increments were introduced you could stop writing your moves down when you had less than 5 minutes on the clock, but that was OK since the opponent was in the same position when his time went below 5 minutes too. Here, however, I just had to keep writing all the moves down.
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #59 - 04/13/15 at 21:06:41
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/13/15 at 19:16:28:
Changing the direction of this thread slightly ... I didn't know that you can play a game without writing the moves down on a scoresheet! Shocked
I played a GM on Sunday, and at the beginning of the game he said to my President that he couldn't (or didn't want) to write his moves down, and he suggested he lose 15 minutes. The arbiter agreed and so we played with me having an extra quarter of an hour, but him not writing any moves down. Nobody told me why or asked if I objected, and I didn't want to cause a fuss.
However, I found it a bit annoying and tried to keep an extra 15 minutes on my clock (which was probably not a good idea, I should have tried to ignore it). At some point we got short of time, and whereas I had to note his move down, re-concentrate on the position, play my move, note it down ... he just stayed concentrated and blitzed out his moves. I think I avoided losing on time by less than one second (although maybe not, I wasn't sure) but had to resign soon anyway.
Anyway, it left a bitter taste in the mouth. Angry
Should a player be allowed to avoid writing his moves down?
Is 15 minutes sufficient compensation?


sounds like you were conned there Tony.
  
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Keano
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #58 - 04/13/15 at 21:00:02
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IMJohnCox wrote on 04/11/15 at 01:22:16:
Personally, and just looking at the rules, I don't find it all that obvious that what So was doing is against the rules. Those speak of it not being allowed to 'use' notes - to me this seems to be directed to bringing pre-made notes to the board. If you aren't allowed to mke notes during the game the rules could have said so more directly. But I guess probably arbiters have their own understanding of what the rules are supposed to mean.

I'd like to know more about exactly what he was warned about and what he was doing.

This sort of self-help note is obviously a bit naff, but should it really be illegal? I'm not sure I see why. Doesn't affect whether it is or not, of course.


John - its obviously completely illegal.

Not even debatable.
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #57 - 04/13/15 at 20:41:24
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Yes, this is what I have always had in my mind:

"Article 8: The recording of the moves
8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his
opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in
the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the
competition."
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #56 - 04/13/15 at 19:48:16
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I think I've seen this once or twice a very long time ago, but when checking the rules just now, it doesn't say anything about being allowed not to keep score anymore (or maybe it's in another section than 8?). Especially since both players are supposed to sign both score sheets and record draw offers - and when claiming a draw by repetition one is obliged to record the move and not play it. How would that work in this case? :/

page 11-12 in the pdf
Quote:
If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way.

http://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #55 - 04/13/15 at 19:18:39
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I have since been told that he played a couple of tournaments like this on the pretext that he'd lost or smashed his glasses.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #54 - 04/13/15 at 19:16:28
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Changing the direction of this thread slightly ... I didn't know that you can play a game without writing the moves down on a scoresheet! Shocked
I played a GM on Sunday, and at the beginning of the game he said to my President that he couldn't (or didn't want) to write his moves down, and he suggested he lose 15 minutes. The arbiter agreed and so we played with me having an extra quarter of an hour, but him not writing any moves down. Nobody told me why or asked if I objected, and I didn't want to cause a fuss.
However, I found it a bit annoying and tried to keep an extra 15 minutes on my clock (which was probably not a good idea, I should have tried to ignore it). At some point we got short of time, and whereas I had to note his move down, re-concentrate on the position, play my move, note it down ... he just stayed concentrated and blitzed out his moves. I think I avoided losing on time by less than one second (although maybe not, I wasn't sure) but had to resign soon anyway.
Anyway, it left a bitter taste in the mouth. Angry
Should a player be allowed to avoid writing his moves down?
Is 15 minutes sufficient compensation?
  
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Re: Top players who don't even know the laws of chess
Reply #53 - 04/13/15 at 17:05:29
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Yes, probably a bit more conversation should have been better. Also, there could have been a different punishment than forfeit. However, it is still a player's obligation to know the rules. And if it is not clear, you normally ask. I agree with the "cookie jar" even though I feel a bit sorry for So because of the situation he seems to be in.

Weirdly, I have seen the note-taking almost as sacred a rule as the touch-rule. I can't understand he's been allowed to use notes in many other tournaments.
  
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