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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ponziani sac (Read 6210 times)
PANFR
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #10 - 08/20/15 at 18:47:51
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Not really worth playing: In CC this is an almost certain draw, while OTB it's very difficult to play as Black.
Why enter that mess, when Black has a few other means to play for a win?
  
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brabo
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #9 - 08/15/15 at 08:12:55
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kylemeister wrote on 08/15/15 at 04:22:40:
I notice that after losing to this sac last year, IM Jeroen Bosch did a Yearbook article on it.  I haven't seen it, but from the games download I see that it included a bit of analysis which went 12. Qa6 (instead of 12. Na3) Rae8 13. Be3 Ng4 14. Bxb6 axb6 15. Nbd2 e4 16. Kd1 exf3 17. Nxf3.

On my blog I already showed that 12. Qa6 is strongly countered by e4 instead of Rae8.
The quality of Jeroens analysis are often a bit shaky as he is mainly backing up for one side but not giving a full objective evalution.
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2015/07/14x-sos.html
" If we look at my comments of the game then we detect that the concept isn't waterproof against a detailed analysis. White has several paths to play for an advantage but needs to play exact and aggressive chess."
" Well the name SOS already explains to us that the system is mainly based on the element of surprise and the fact that normal moves only lead to exactly the kind of positions in which the strength of the system is hidden."
" I read on the internet that some players therefore regularly change lines by jumping from one SOS number to another so the element of surprise is kept. "
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #8 - 08/15/15 at 04:22:40
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I notice that after losing to this sac last year, IM Jeroen Bosch did a Yearbook article on it.  I haven't seen it, but from the games download I see that it included a bit of analysis which went 12. Qa6 (instead of 12. Na3) Rae8 13. Be3 Ng4 14. Bxb6 axb6 15. Nbd2 e4 16. Kd1 exf3 17. Nxf3.
  
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brabo
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #7 - 06/30/15 at 06:51:17
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Toshak wrote on 06/29/15 at 20:03:49:
brabo wrote on 06/27/15 at 15:22:51:
Anyway the best move seems to be 12.Na3 with incredible complications but leading eventually to a equal/balanced position


Yes, 12. Na3 seems best, that's what I think too, but I couldn't find any games with this move.


I found one game: http://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/ponz-says-he-can-refute-ponziani?page=9


I believe the evaluation of 5... Bc5 mainly depends on this position. Only black can deviate on several points without being (at least slightly) worse as e.g. in the game mentioned above.
I studied the final position quite some time but there are simply too many possibilities. Today I think it is just balanced.

So assuming black doesn't blunder (which is very likely to happen in OTB if white deviates with a weaker but not yet studied move), black decides if he wants a forced draw or a playable position.

To analyze this opening I used for the very first time, the method of speed-analyzing (earlier mentioned by e.g. Vass) which means the engine gets very little time to analyze a position but as compensation it can analyze 100 x more positions than I normally can do in the same period. The result was very acceptable but I admit that here and there I helped a bit. I also discovered that Komodo is much weaker in this kind of speed-analyzing than Stockfish but maybe this just has to do with the nature of the position.
  
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Toshak
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #6 - 06/29/15 at 20:03:49
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brabo wrote on 06/27/15 at 15:22:51:
Anyway the best move seems to be 12.Na3 with incredible complications but leading eventually to a equal/balanced position


Yes, 12. Na3 seems best, that's what I think too, but I couldn't find any games with this move.

  
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brabo
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #5 - 06/27/15 at 15:22:51
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Toshak wrote on 05/31/15 at 20:55:58:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Bc5 6.dxc6 Bxf2+ 7.Ke2 Bb6 8.Qd5 Nf2 seems very strong for Black.
9.Rg1 (what else??) 0-0 10.cxb7 Bxb7 11.Qxb7 Qf6 and I can't find a good plan for White.
But this looks so simple for Black, I just can't believe.

Black is 2 pieces down and engines of + 3000 rating are scoring miserable in this position: +6, =7, -1 (so in total I found 14 games in my engine database). It is not simple at all and pretty much impossible to play at the board for a human.

Anyway the best move seems to be 12.Na3 with incredible complications but leading eventually to a equal/balanced position so not really better than the familiar lines of the Ponziani.
  
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Toshak
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #4 - 05/31/15 at 21:53:39
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This is a different variation.
9.Qe5+, but I think this is no good because of 9. - Kf8 (e-file).
9.Rg1 seems best to me, but I'm not sure....
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #3 - 05/31/15 at 21:22:34
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Hmm.  This page has a game from last year, annotated (in Dutch) by IM Twan Burg.  He thinks White should have varied on move 14, but says he can't say who is better at the end of the variation.

http://schaaksite.nl/page.php?al=hmc-calder-grijpt-naast-de-beker
  
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Toshak
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #2 - 05/31/15 at 20:55:58
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Bc5 6.dxc6 Bxf2+ 7.Ke2 Bb6 8.Qd5 Nf2 seems very strong for Black.
9.Rg1 (what else??) 0-0 10.cxb7 Bxb7 11.Qxb7 Qf6 and I can't find a good plan for White.
But this looks so simple for Black, I just can't believe.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Ponziani sac
Reply #1 - 05/31/15 at 20:43:50
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I wonder.  Over the years I've seen evaluations in books ranging from unclear to ±, but have had the impression that the latter is probably more accurate.
  
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Toshak
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Ponziani sac
05/31/15 at 19:32:40
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Hi, everybody!

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Bc5 6.dxc6 Bxf2 7.Ke2

Is this playable for Black?
  
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