Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?! (Read 6081 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2492
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #13 - 12/15/17 at 00:22:28
Post Tools
There is something to be said for limiting the amount of preparation you have to do, of course.  But in this case, I don't really understand it.  If you want to play the regular Semi-Slav lines, 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 is a perfectly fine way of playing.  Compared to the Meran and Botvinnik, you have to learn "extra" lines whether you answer this move order with 4...e6 or whether you answer it with 4...Bf5 or whatever else.   But if you're looking for a normal Semi-Slav in the first place, I think it's the best, or at least not worse than the alternatives, all of which see Black playing something outside of his "main" repertoire.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 793
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #12 - 12/14/17 at 23:52:44
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 12/14/17 at 18:11:59:
Marc, you seem to think that a move is more or less effective depending on how many options White has against it, which is a little bit of a strange way to think about it.

This is a common way of thinking. I have seen this argument made against playing the classical 1.e4 e5 as black, and the Open Sicilian as white. On the other side of the coin, I have seen this argument used in favor of playing the Scandinavian (amongst others). E.g.:

"The appeal of the Scandinavian Defence is easy to understand: it is very forcing – Black is virtually guaranteed to get his desired structure. There are no annoying ‘Anti-Scandinavians’ to study!" --https://www.newinchess.com/en_US/understanding-the-scandinavian

Whether or not this thinking is correct, we should account for it in our preparations.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2492
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #11 - 12/14/17 at 18:11:59
Post Tools
But even if White can keep a slight edge after 4...e6 5.Nbd2, is it any larger than the edge he has after other Black fourth moves?  I think that calling 4...e6 dubious here is ridiculous, personally. 

Going back to the original post, 4...e6 is a perfectly playable move, it isn't dubious in the slightest if Black knows what he's doing.  Many of the strongest players in the world have played it multiple times against other elite players, in important games.  Marc, you seem to think that a move is more or less effective depending on how many options White has against it, which is a little bit of a strange way to think about it.  Perhaps you should think about the positions that you are trying to achieve with the Black pieces and whether a particular move can get you there without being punished--I'd hardly call 5.Nbd2 punishment, though sure, it will require some preparation.  Just like 4...Bf5, 4...a6, and 4...Bg4 will require.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3122
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #10 - 12/14/17 at 09:24:02
Post Tools
I have played the White side of 4...e6 5.Nbd2 on and off for years, and the books have been recommending 5...c5 as the antidote for most of that time. But I hardly ever see it played. Maybe it looks too strange to "waste a tempo" this early for players below a certain level (2300?).

The solution for White if 5.Nbd2 c5! equalizes may be 5.b3 instead, as Avrukh has been recommending; sometimes reaching the same positions but in some move orders putting the knight on c3 anyway.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2492
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #9 - 12/14/17 at 06:17:34
Post Tools
We honestly think that 4...e6?! 5.Nbd2! gives White a bigger advantage than he would have had after other Black fourth moves?  That's certainly news to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 793
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #8 - 12/13/17 at 23:23:47
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 12/13/17 at 16:01:23:
I really can't imagine that 4...e6 deserves any kind of negative annotation here, what's the big deal?  It's either going to be a Meran, some kind of anti-Meran, or whatever 5.Nbd2 c5 is known as. ... (snip)

Here it was suggested that 5.Nbd2 c5 6.b3 is not easy for black:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1491838454/32#32
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2492
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #7 - 12/13/17 at 16:01:23
Post Tools
I really can't imagine that 4...e6 deserves any kind of negative annotation here, what's the big deal?  It's either going to be a Meran, some kind of anti-Meran, or whatever 5.Nbd2 c5 is known as.  Black can also get some additional options, for instance the old Chigorin variation would be reached after 5.Bd3 dxc4 6.Bxc4 Nbd7 7.0-0 Bd6 8.Nc3 (or other move orders), which is not playable via the "normal" Meran move order. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 515
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #6 - 12/13/17 at 02:16:42
Post Tools
I think best is meant to be 5...Nbd7 6 Bd3 Bd6 and meet e3-e4 with ...e5, but these aren't exactly easy positions to win for Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BigTy
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 53
Joined: 04/16/17
Gender: Male
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #5 - 12/13/17 at 01:02:40
Post Tools
As a Semi-Slav player, I am also interested in this variation for black (4...e6). Playing 4...Bf5/Bg4 and giving up the light-square bishop early has never really appealed to me for some reason, despite what theory says about it being ok.

However, I worry about the move 5.Nbd2, when if I continue in Semi-Slav fashion with 5...Nbd7 6.Bd3 playing the typical Meran move, 6...dxc4 looks unappealing because I am essentially improving the position of White's knight, which will probably go to e5 after a subsequent ...b5 from Black, while the bishop on d3 does not lose time moving from d3-c4-d3 as it does in a normal Meran. On the other hand, if I do not take on c4, it seems like White is going to play a quick e4, after which my position, and in particular the c8 bishop, will become passive.

What is the best way for Black to handle 5.Nbd2?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bonsai
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 622
Joined: 03/13/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #4 - 06/05/15 at 10:41:20
Post Tools
Marc Benford wrote on 06/04/15 at 15:59:00:
Against the move order 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3, the move 4...e6 is extremely effective, since White has already committed to playing e3, so White has lost his second option (5. Bg5), White has only one option left: he will need to play 5. Nf3 transposing into a 5. e3 Semi-Slav.

This assumes that somehow it is a victory for black to be able to go into a standard 5.e3 Semi-Slav (plus there must be some at least okay alternative to 5.Nf3), while not counting that white has made it less attrative for black to play standard Slav systems with dxc4 (of course there are still interesting lines such as 4...Bf5 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Qb3 Nc6).

Marc Benford wrote on 06/04/15 at 15:59:00:
- Against the move order 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3, the move 4...e6 is not very effective: it's still 'playable' but it's much weaker than the usual Semi-Slav. It's due to the fact that White now has four options: 5. Nc3, 5. Bd3, 5. Nbd2 and 5. b3. The first option just transposes into a normal 5. e3 Semi-Slav, while the three other options give White an advantage that is even bigger than usual (and they tend to lead to games which are more positional, not sharp and tactical games like in the usual Semi-Slav).

I would agree that white can get a different character of play than in e.g. the Meran Semi-Slav, but even with Nc3+e3+Nf3 played white can choose lines with b3/Qc2 etc. that are reasonably positional. I would not agree that the extra lines that white can play objectively offer white any more of an advantage than the lines after Nc3+e3+Nf3. Do not get me wrong, I like so of the positions you can get from this move order for white, but I do not really believe they are objectively better for white. However, the real downside of 3.Nf3+4.e3 is that 4...Bf5 and 4...Bg4 (without having to play 4...dxc4 first) are reasonable attempts to punish the white move order without an early Nc3. These moves become possible due to the lesser pressure on d5 - you cannot really play 4...Bf5 after e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3, but after 4.e3 it is very good and so is 4...Bg4. GMs obviously still play this for white with the hope of getting an advantage (and Avrukh did recommend it in his GM repetoire #1), but if it were not for these extra options, then this move order would of course be even more popular.

In either case (3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3), once 4.e3 is in 4...g6 also becomes more attractive than when white still has the option to go 5.Bf4 (if both knights had moved).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lauri Torni
Senior Member
****
Offline


Si vis pacem, para bellum.

Posts: 262
Location: Finland
Joined: 01/09/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #3 - 06/05/15 at 07:19:01
Post Tools
I think ?! is true psychologically. The position is easier to play for white than normal semi-slav.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4628
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #2 - 06/04/15 at 21:27:35
Post Tools
Such things as "?!" and "much weaker than the usual Semi-Slav" imply at least a definite "+=", and if there is such a consensus about 4...e6 it is news to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gauss
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 54
Joined: 07/16/14
Gender: Male
Re: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
Reply #1 - 06/04/15 at 20:37:39
Post Tools
4...e6 is the most common move in that position among top correspondence players, so it probably isn't too bad.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Marc Benford
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 89
Joined: 07/17/13
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6?!
06/04/15 at 15:59:00
Post Tools
Hi.

Someone told me that:

- Against the move order 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 or 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3, the move 4...e6 is averagely effective. This is an usual Semi-Slav. White now has two options: 5. e3 and 5. Bg5

- Against the move order 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e3, the move 4...e6 is extremely effective, since White has already committed to playing e3, so White has lost his second option (5. Bg5), White has only one option left: he will need to play 5. Nf3 transposing into a 5. e3 Semi-Slav.

- Against the move order 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3, the move 4...e6 is not very effective: it's still 'playable' but it's much weaker than the usual Semi-Slav. It's due to the fact that White now has four options: 5. Nc3, 5. Bd3, 5. Nbd2 and 5. b3. The first option just transposes into a normal 5. e3 Semi-Slav, while the three other options give White an advantage that is even bigger than usual (and they tend to lead to games which are more positional, not sharp and tactical games like in the usual Semi-Slav).

Could I get your opinions on this please? Is it true?

Thanks in advance for your answers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo